Cameron Grows a Pair????? or not?

[cc]

You wouldn't of course - I do. I really do not care how your mind works.



It is a big part of the very material that web sites, imams and mentors use to fire up the soldiers for allah ... successfully  I will add

[RW]

cc, I said the same thing back on DV about change needed to come from within Islam.  You say that isn't going to happen and given the current climate, I believe you.  So keeping that in mind, what should we do?  Have you heard of any decent suggestions?  Shen?  Spec?

[cc]

Some of the best discussions I have had on islam have been with yourself. You seem to acknowledge there is a serious problem and are very concerned about everyday islamics so we have a solid and mutually agreed starting point. We have always agreed that change had to come from within.



For this thread I presented the best proposal put forward by any Western  leader to date.  While very skeptical of the most important element, I acknowledge a step for the West and wondered what others thought of it.



Other than yourself, no one has even tried to address Cameron's points.



I'm a tad confused on this termYou say that isn't going to happen and given the current climate, To be precise, I meant it isn't likely with islam period.  "Climate" is always the same within islam and I do not know what "current climate" would mean.



I'll be frank. Speaking for myself, I see no way to change islam even slightly. I do see a period of a supposed attempts to change under pressure resulting in none where the rubber meets the road   ... and ending with the worse case scenario at the end of the road.



That said, Cameron is trying. Some things he proposes are good and may slow things down a bit. I hope to be proved wrong on the one item that matters most ... islam giving up spewing hate for the West and being genuine citizens of the countries they reside in ... not merely citizens of islam residing in Western lands.



As to "intelligence" handling it, points can be scored  but winning that game is impossible. We can't and should not be expected to play defense forever. I'm amazed that we put ourselves into a position where we had to in the first place .. and have continued that losing game for some time

[Romero]

Speaking for myself, I see no way to change islam even slightly.

Your Islamic employee and hairdresser won't change? Have you even bothered to ask them or are you too politically correct?

[cc]

RW, Other than yourself, no one has even tried to address Cameron's points.

RW. Did you leave the door open? There is a bee buzzing  around in here, avoiding Cameron's points like the plague but trying to sting me and  thankfully missing the mark by a mile ... errr...  by 1.60934 K ... as per usual.

[Bricktop]

Their own people know better than any what happens when you speak out yet are blamed for not speaking out due to fear.  That's not being complicit.  That's not wanting to be dead.



As I've said a million times, it's attitudes like yours that keep them silent Spec.  It's that very disdain that makes them not want to stand up and risk their lives.  We often forget that the first victim of Islamists is Islam itself.



i don't believe law enforcement can't infiltrate these places either and start making an example of these extremists.

My dear...if these rodents weren't in our own countries, we would care less what they do.



They bring their disease of religious dogma and obesiance with them to our country. No muslims, no problems.

[cc]

As I've said a million times, it's attitudes like yours that keep them silent Spec. It's that very disdain that makes them not want to stand up and risk their lives.

I find that confusing



It is  disdain from within their close society, family and mosque members that keeps them silent AND in fear of their lives



You see, the rare Islamic who stands up to Islam ways is  treated  like a hero in non Islamic society.

They are what non islamics have been waiting for / hoping for  ......  it has been hopping for millions of such heros



Maybe I misunderstood your words because they sounded so counter to the reality to me

[Bricktop]

Blaming MY disdain for their barbarity and evil brutality is a stretch too far.



There is no chicken and egg situation here. Islam struck first on the 11th of September, and has continued its assault on our nations since.



Nobody of any intelligence will deny that Western nations have treated the Middle East with contempt in the past. But that is in the distant past. The last British soldier left that wasteland in 1947, whereupon they were left to their own devices.



Initially, it was Israel and Western support for it that was the ignition point (the Soviet Union was the first nation to recognise the State of Israel). Then it was solidarity with the Palestinians, a group largely rebuked and ignored by mainstream Arab nations. There is always an ignition point for these uncivilised, backward brutes, and there always will be.



No islam = no problems.



In answer to Romero's silly questions;



Yes

Yes

Yes

No.



Let them slaughter each other in the confines of their OWN barren and repugnant wastelands. They have no place in the modern world.



When they choose to change their conduct, then, perhaps they can be admitted into modern civilisation. If not, let them suffer in their own excrement.

[cc]

silly questions, diversions .. our very own "savior" of islam  ..... if I can use that term  ac_smile

[RW]

Blaming MY disdain for their barbarity and evil brutality is a stretch too far.



There is no chicken and egg situation here. Islam struck first on the 11th of September, and has continued its assault on our nations since.



Nobody of any intelligence will deny that Western nations have treated the Middle East with contempt in the past. But that is in the distant past. The last British soldier left that wasteland in 1947, whereupon they were left to their own devices.



Initially, it was Israel and Western support for it that was the ignition point (the Soviet Union was the first nation to recognise the State of Israel). Then it was solidarity with the Palestinians, a group largely rebuked and ignored by mainstream Arab nations. There is always an ignition point for these uncivilised, backward brutes, and there always will be.



No islam = no problems.



In answer to Romero's silly questions;



Yes

Yes

Yes

No.



Let them slaughter each other in the confines of their OWN barren and repugnant wastelands. They have no place in the modern world.



When they choose to change their conduct, then, perhaps they can be admitted into modern civilisation. If not, let them suffer in their own excrement.

Sorry quick one off...



Islam struck first on Sept 11th?!  Are you fucking kidding me?!?!



Read up boy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims

[RW]

Some of the best discussions I have had on islam have been with yourself. You seem to acknowledge there is a serious problem and are very concerned about everyday islamics so we have a solid and mutually agreed starting point. We have always agreed that change had to come from within.



For this thread I presented the best proposal put forward by any Western  leader to date.  While very skeptical of the most important element, I acknowledge a step for the West and wondered what others thought of it.



Other than yourself, no one has even tried to address Cameron's points.



I'm a tad confused on this termYou say that isn't going to happen and given the current climate, To be precise, I meant it isn't likely with islam period.  "Climate" is always the same within islam and I do not know what "current climate" would mean.



I'll be frank. Speaking for myself, I see no way to change islam even slightly. I do see a period of a supposed attempts to change under pressure resulting in none where the rubber meets the road   ... and ending with the worse case scenario at the end of the road.



That said, Cameron is trying. Some things he proposes are good and may slow things down a bit. I hope to be proved wrong on the one item that matters most ... islam giving up spewing hate for the West and being genuine citizens of the countries they reside in ... not merely citizens of islam residing in Western lands.



As to "intelligence" handling it, points can be scored  but winning that game is impossible. We can't and should not be expected to play defense forever. I'm amazed that we put ourselves into a position where we had to in the first place .. and have continued that losing game for some time

You flatter me cc.  The best conversations I have had about Islam have been with you as well.  I have learned so much from you on the subject.



The current climate is we fear them and they hate us.  That's a really shitty starting place for change.



I'm not talking about a defensive approach but a pro-active one that roots out extremism and nips it in the bud ASAP.  ZERO tolerance.

[RW]

Their own people know better than any what happens when you speak out yet are blamed for not speaking out due to fear.  That's not being complicit.  That's not wanting to be dead.



As I've said a million times, it's attitudes like yours that keep them silent Spec.  It's that very disdain that makes them not want to stand up and risk their lives.  We often forget that the first victim of Islamists is Islam itself.



i don't believe law enforcement can't infiltrate these places either and start making an example of these extremists.

My dear...if these rodents weren't in our own countries, we would care less what they do.



They bring their disease of religious dogma and obesiance with them to our country. No muslims, no problems.

What do we bring to their countries Spec?



Here's a few clues:



https://www.popularresistance.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Us-bombing-Fallujah-e1410531315341.jpg">



http://ak.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/5742632/preview/stock-footage-carpet-bombing-raid-on-foreign-targets-iraq-afghanistan-cluster-bombs-massive-aerial.jpg">



http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66490000/jpg/_66490975_66490974.jpg">

[RW]

As I've said a million times, it's attitudes like yours that keep them silent Spec. It's that very disdain that makes them not want to stand up and risk their lives.

I find that confusing



It is  disdain from within their close society, family and mosque members that keeps them silent AND in fear of their lives



You see, the rare Islamic who stands up to Islam ways is  treated  like a hero in non Islamic society.

They are what non islamics have been waiting for / hoping for  ......  it has been hopping for millions of such heros



Maybe I misunderstood your words because they sounded so counter to the reality to me

cc, tell me something.  Why would a Muslim want to stand up beside us Westerns and fight for change within Islam?  So they can face an attitude where they are seen as pieces of shit?  I doubt that highly.

[cc]

I do understand your concerns and heard what you are saying. I had already mentioned the effects of trying to tame down mosques in both areas, within our society and within Islamic society



As you already quoted me saying:

You see, the rare Islamic who stands up to Islam ways is treated like a hero in non Islamic society.

They are what non islamics have been waiting for / hoping for ...... it has been hopping for millions of such heros

It is disdain from within their close society, family and mosque members that keeps them silent AND in fear of their lives

Here's a great example of Boston mosques quoted in today's news.



http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/22/moderate-imam-reveals-how-radicals-won-battle-for-soul-boston-mosques/">Moderate imam reveals how radicals won battle for soul of Boston mosques



A moderate imam who raised alarms more than a decade ago about a radical shift at two controversial Boston mosques he led for decades says he was ousted for his efforts by a local doctor whose son joined ISIS and replaced by a man now with the infamous Pakistani terrorist group behind the 2008 Mumbai bombings.



Imam Talal Eid told FoxNews.com that creeping radicalism put him increasingly at odds in the late 1990s with the board of directors of the Islamic Center of New England, where he served from 1982 until 2005. But when Eid, nominally in charge of the religious teaching at the center's mosques in Sharon and Quincy, resisted, he was left in fear for his safety and eventually driven out by Dr. Abdul-badi Abousamra, at the time a prominent endocrinologist at Massachusetts General Hospital and president of the 1,500-member Center.



"At times, I was fearful for my safety," said Eid, a former member of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom who now runs a mosque in Toledo, Ohio. "When I would stand up for what I believed in, and there was a clash, you see how I could be scared."



"I was pushing for one thing, and the board was pushing for something else, and I was alone facing them."

[cc]

continued:



Abousamra, who has since moved to Doha and could not be reached for comment, was one of the Boston Muslim community's most powerful and prominent figures in the late 1990s and early 2000s. In addition to being the center's president, he was vice president of the Muslim American Society of Boston, which ran the Islamic Society of Boston, a Cambridge mosque that shared many members with those run by the Islamic Center of New England.



All three mosques have ties to a host of known and suspected terrorists, including Dzhokhar and Tamerlan Tsarnaev, the brothers behind the 2013 Boston Marathon bombing; Aafia Siddiqui, aka "Lady Al Qaeda," the Pakistani woman and Usama bin Laden associate now serving an 86-year federal sentence; and, more recently, Usaama Rahim, the 26-year-old man killed by police last month after brandishing a knife and allegedly plotting to behead Boston cops.



Even as Abousamra was exerting a radical influence on the leadership of mosques he helped run, law enforcement authorities say his son, a Northeastern University graduate raised in the Boston suburb of Stoughton, was training in Middle Eastern terror camps, aiding Al Qaeda and plotting attacks on U.S. soil. Ahamad Abousamra left Boston for Syria in 2006 while under investigation for terror-related charges that would later lead to an indictment, and is now believed to be running ISIS' social media operation.



While mosques around the nation have disavowed terrorism, with many leaders working with law enforcement authorities to report suspicious activity, the infighting at the Boston mosque described by Eid shows that behind the scenes, mosque leaders are not always on the same page.



http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/22/moderate-imam-reveals-how-radicals-won-battle-for-soul-boston-mosques/">It is a long and detailed article of what was volunteered by a moderate imam - MORE HERE