8 more slaughtered in the US.

[Bricktop]

Tell me where I'm wrong.

You are wrong in the idea that just because a government has superior weaponry it can't be challenged by an armed populace. Have you NOT been paying attention to what is going on in Syria lately?



I already pointed to the American Revolution but there are tons more recent happenings that point to you being wrong. Take for example the Russian Revolution, the Cuban Revolution, the Vietnam war, Even the Nazi take over of the German Democratic government. How many of those challenges to the established government do you think would have been successful if the revolutionaries were unarmed????? I'll tell you how many......NONE.



Do you think a revolution just happens overnight? Do you think that one day an ass load of malcontents just get out of bed and say..."Okay boys and girls, we're having a revolution today....Everybody grab your favorite shotgun"? It doesn't quite work that way but there is one commonality.....the rebels are armed from the beginning and although they may be poorly armed at first, circumstances change. Weapons are upgraded, tactics are used that play to the strengths of the rebel forces. I don't think you fully appreciate how easy it is for a determined group to achieve access to paramilitary weaponry and equipment. It's happening right under our noses all over the globe. Do you think National Guard Armory's in the US are what most security professionals would consider a "hard target"????? Do you have any idea how much equipment and weaponry is ripe for the taking in those weekend warrior, buffoon guarded places?



Everything is not always as it seems; everything is not Canada out there.

You need to re-read your history.



The American Revolution was not won by armed citizens; it was won by armed dissidents supported by the French and Spanish military, over a stretched and weary British force.



The Russian, French, Cuban and Vietnamese revolutions all succeeded because the MILITARY turned on the government and sided with the rebellion. That includes the overthrow of the Soviet government when Boris Yeltsin took control. Likewise Romania.



Other revolutions, such as Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland failed because the military remained loyal.



The Nazis took power in Germany by peaceful means, having won a number of seats in their Parliament. There was no military force involved.



In Syria and Libya, their rebel forces were commanded and managed by former generals from the Government forces.



Whilst I don't question the "ease" with which rebels can procure weaponry, I would be astonished if you, of all people, would back an armed civil insurrection against a properly equipped and trained military force.

[Wulf]

Tell me where I'm wrong.

You are wrong in the idea that just because a government has superior weaponry it can't be challenged by an armed populace. Have you NOT been paying attention to what is going on in Syria lately?



I already pointed to the American Revolution but there are tons more recent happenings that point to you being wrong. Take for example the Russian Revolution, the Cuban Revolution, the Vietnam war, Even the Nazi take over of the German Democratic government. How many of those challenges to the established government do you think would have been successful if the revolutionaries were unarmed????? I'll tell you how many......NONE.



Do you think a revolution just happens overnight? Do you think that one day an ass load of malcontents just get out of bed and say..."Okay boys and girls, we're having a revolution today....Everybody grab your favorite shotgun"? It doesn't quite work that way but there is one commonality.....the rebels are armed from the beginning and although they may be poorly armed at first, circumstances change. Weapons are upgraded, tactics are used that play to the strengths of the rebel forces. I don't think you fully appreciate how easy it is for a determined group to achieve access to paramilitary weaponry and equipment. It's happening right under our noses all over the globe. Do you think National Guard Armory's in the US are what most security professionals would consider a "hard target"????? Do you have any idea how much equipment and weaponry is ripe for the taking in those weekend warrior, buffoon guarded places?



Everything is not always as it seems; everything is not Canada out there.

Getting back to reality...



Do you really think that would happen in the U.S. and that any violent insurgence wouldn't be immediately squashed by the big bad state?



We're not talking about Syria or Russia.  We are talking about the "democratically" ruled U S of A.

Is that it? That's what you are honestly going to use to support your opinion based assertion?   I feel cheated.



It's funny how so many people that have never been any where near an armed conflict are so knowledgeable in military matters. Please feel free to elaborate your position.....I'm still waiting for the entertainment to start.  

[RW]

When you purchase a gun Wulf is the reason "in case the government gets out of hand"?  How many Anericans would you say buy a gun for that purpose?

[Wulf]

Tell me where I'm wrong.

You are wrong in the idea that just because a government has superior weaponry it can't be challenged by an armed populace. Have you NOT been paying attention to what is going on in Syria lately?



I already pointed to the American Revolution but there are tons more recent happenings that point to you being wrong. Take for example the Russian Revolution, the Cuban Revolution, the Vietnam war, Even the Nazi take over of the German Democratic government. How many of those challenges to the established government do you think would have been successful if the revolutionaries were unarmed????? I'll tell you how many......NONE.



Do you think a revolution just happens overnight? Do you think that one day an ass load of malcontents just get out of bed and say..."Okay boys and girls, we're having a revolution today....Everybody grab your favorite shotgun"? It doesn't quite work that way but there is one commonality.....the rebels are armed from the beginning and although they may be poorly armed at first, circumstances change. Weapons are upgraded, tactics are used that play to the strengths of the rebel forces. I don't think you fully appreciate how easy it is for a determined group to achieve access to paramilitary weaponry and equipment. It's happening right under our noses all over the globe. Do you think National Guard Armory's in the US are what most security professionals would consider a "hard target"????? Do you have any idea how much equipment and weaponry is ripe for the taking in those weekend warrior, buffoon guarded places?



Everything is not always as it seems; everything is not Canada out there.

You need to re-read your history.



The American Revolution was not won by armed citizens; it was won by armed dissidents supported by the French and Spanish military, over a stretched and weary British force.



The Russian, French, Cuban and Vietnamese revolutions all succeeded because the MILITARY turned on the government and sided with the rebellion. That includes the overthrow of the Soviet government when Boris Yeltsin took control. Likewise Romania.



Other revolutions, such as Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland failed because the military remained loyal.



The Nazis took power in Germany by peaceful means, having won a number of seats in their Parliament. There was no military force involved.



In Syria and Libya, their rebel forces were commanded and managed by former generals from the Government forces.



Whilst I don't question the "ease" with which rebels can procure weaponry, I would be astonished if you, of all people, would back an armed civil insurrection against a properly equipped and trained military force.

Do you think the US military would remain 100% loyal if the cause the people had was seen as just. Despite what you think you know, you don't really understand the American psyche nor the mission and temperament of its military. I think I know it a little better than you or anyone here.



Just so you know the US currently has a significant number of veterans living as private citizens who would more than be ready to answer a call to arms should it ever come to an extreme and unthinkable situation. Why you would be astonished as to my position on this I cannot fathom. First an foremost I am a citizen of the US and should our government ever forget that they exist to serve the people I would be more than willing to remind them of their place be it at the voting booth or on a field of fire. Just about anyone who serves or has served in the US military feels the same way. Who do you think the average US soldier owes his allegiance to....the government????? Fuck no, it's to the people. We take an oath to protect the country and we owe or loyalty to the principals that founded this nation, not the politicians in Washington. Just as the politicians are supposed to serve the people so is the military.



BTW, who do you think those "armed dissidents" were during the American Revolution? They were American citizens.

As to your assertion that the Nazis took control of Germany by peaceful means, all I can say is you have obviously skipped over the "Night of the Longknives" and the events leading up to it. You also seem to be unaware that there was a paramilitary arm of the Nazi party (Brownshirts). Their sole purpose was to foceibly subdue the political opposition through violent means. If you can find a living member of the communist party that existed in Germany in 1934 YOU could ask him or her if the Nazis took control peaceably. In 1934, I think all in total there were about 4000 commies arrested, and hundreds killed in fighting against the Nazis. Does that sound like taking control by peaceful means?

[Wulf]

When you purchase a gun Wulf is the reason "in case the government gets out of hand"?  How many Anericans would you say buy a gun for that purpose?

Guns are tools and can be used for a variety of purposes. I don't know exactly why people buy them. I suppose everyone has their own reasons.



Look at it this way, how many people purchase a hammer with the idea that it will come in handy if their house blows down during a hurricane? ac_dunno I don't think a hell of a lot of "do it yourselfers" are buying hammers and power tools so that they an reconstruct their homes in the event of a natural disaster but it would sure be nice to have them if they are needed.

[Romero]

Not only do I keep a hammer in my home, I also open carry a hammer. You never know when there's going to be a hurricane or someone with another hammer.



Gotta have a hammer in case the government comes after us with their hammers.

[Romero]

Just so you know the US currently has a significant number of veterans living as private citizens who would more than be ready to answer a call to arms should it ever come to an extreme and unthinkable situation. Why you would be astonished as to my position on this I cannot fathom. First an foremost I am a citizen of the US and should our government ever forget that they exist to serve the people I would be more than willing to remind them of their place be it at the voting booth or on a field of fire. Just about anyone who serves or has served in the US military feels the same way. Who do you think the average US soldier owes his allegiance to....the government????? Fuck no, it's to the people. We take an oath to protect the country and we owe or loyalty to the principals that founded this nation, not the politicians in Washington. Just as the politicians are supposed to serve the people so is the military.

You're so naive.



The US government "War on Terror" alone has killed over 6,000 American soldiers. Hundreds of thousands of American casualties, suicides, PTSD, brain damaged and depressed.



One hundred thousand veterans are currently unemployed and homeless on any given day. Veteran Affairs is a cruel joke. Families are being ruined.



And to think, with all these hundreds of thousands of lives already ruined, you're more worried about some stupid conspiracy theory that hasn't even happened.



You've been for the Iraq war, haven't you? You're a government stooge. A traitor to the veterans who were harmed because of your ideology.

[J0E]

why did the killer murder all those people?



Did this have anything to do with being denied access to see his kids?



Certainly revenge on his ex must've been one of the main motivators.

[Wulf]

Not only do I keep a hammer in my home, I also open carry a hammer. You never know when there's going to be a hurricane or someone with another hammer.



Gotta have a hammer in case the government comes after us with their hammers.

You don't need a hammer. Domestic violence statistics say that you are 4 times more likely to beat your boyfriend with it than drive a nail.

[Wulf]

Just so you know the US currently has a significant number of veterans living as private citizens who would more than be ready to answer a call to arms should it ever come to an extreme and unthinkable situation. Why you would be astonished as to my position on this I cannot fathom. First an foremost I am a citizen of the US and should our government ever forget that they exist to serve the people I would be more than willing to remind them of their place be it at the voting booth or on a field of fire. Just about anyone who serves or has served in the US military feels the same way. Who do you think the average US soldier owes his allegiance to....the government????? Fuck no, it's to the people. We take an oath to protect the country and we owe or loyalty to the principals that founded this nation, not the politicians in Washington. Just as the politicians are supposed to serve the people so is the military.

You're so naive.



The US government "War on Terror" alone has killed over 6,000 American soldiers. Hundreds of thousands of American casualties, suicides, PTSD, brain damaged and depressed.



One hundred thousand veterans are currently unemployed and homeless on any given day. Veteran Affairs is a cruel joke. Families are being ruined.



And to think, with all these hundreds of thousands of lives already ruined, you're more worried about some stupid conspiracy theory that hasn't even happened.



You've been for the Iraq war, haven't you? You're a government stooge. A traitor to the veterans who were harmed because of your ideology.

What the he'll are you raving about? You are a far left loon with a lot more to say about shit that doesn't concern you than anyone has a RIGHT to.



Don't fucking tell me about the plight of US veterans or the sacrifices they have made. I wouldn't expect a feminized, mealy mouthed, little douch like you to understand  why we do what we do. The sacrifices they have made were done willingly and dispite that the gov has let them down it doesn't change the fact that most of them would give the same of themselves again if they could. But you probably wouldn't know anything about that because the Huffington Post left that bit of info out of their last op-ed piece.



 It's a sad fact that vets have not been given the attention and treatment they deserve but it doesn't give you the right to use your cowardly cake hole to speak for them or lecture me about their condition. Who the hell are you but a little Canadian shit heel who has never given anything  of himself that didn't contribute to his own personal comfort.



Tell me you leftist creep, if this were a face to face convo would you have the same courage to spout off like the rainbow flag waving, crusader you desperately want to be? Or does all that mouth come from the relative protection of distance and keyboard?



BTW shithead, the only person here worried about anything is obviously you. It's evident by the way you flew in hysterically waving you fairy wings around like a little bitch over a discussion regarding a political event that is theoretical in nature. Get a grip for Christ sake. Well at least you didn't liken me to Hitler but I'm sure that's coming up next.

[Bricktop]

Do you think the US military would remain 100% loyal if the cause the people had was seen as just. Despite what you think you know, you don't really understand the American psyche nor the mission and temperament of its military. I think I know it a little better than you or anyone here.



Just so you know the US currently has a significant number of veterans living as private citizens who would more than be ready to answer a call to arms should it ever come to an extreme and unthinkable situation. Why you would be astonished as to my position on this I cannot fathom. First an foremost I am a citizen of the US and should our government ever forget that they exist to serve the people I would be more than willing to remind them of their place be it at the voting booth or on a field of fire. Just about anyone who serves or has served in the US military feels the same way. Who do you think the average US soldier owes his allegiance to....the government????? Fuck no, it's to the people. We take an oath to protect the country and we owe or loyalty to the principals that founded this nation, not the politicians in Washington. Just as the politicians are supposed to serve the people so is the military.



BTW, who do you think those "armed dissidents" were during the American Revolution? They were American citizens.

As to your assertion that the Nazis took control of Germany by peaceful means, all I can say is you have obviously skipped over the "Night of the Longknives" and the events leading up to it. You also seem to be unaware that there was a paramilitary arm of the Nazi party (Brownshirts). Their sole purpose was to foceibly subdue the political opposition through violent means. If you can find a living member of the communist party that existed in Germany in 1934 YOU could ask him or her if the Nazis took control peaceably. In 1934, I think all in total there were about 4000 commies arrested, and hundreds killed in fighting against the Nazis. Does that sound like taking control by peaceful means?

I would not pretend to know where your military's allegiance would lie in the case of major civil unrest and national rebellion. I defer to your greater knowledge in that regard.



The point I'm making is that if the military stays loyal to the government, then all the armed civilians in the US would not succeed in overthrowing the politicians.



And politicians know that...which is why they appoint and monitor their generals very, very carefully. As they do everywhere.

[Frood]

You really have no idea what America is really like. The only thing that keeps the businesses safe in the city I live in is the right the owners have to arm themselves.  We need to deal with poverty and the illegal fire arms that FAR out number the legal ones. Not strip rights away from noncriminals.  That's like saying the way to stop the heroin epidemic is to take pain patients prescriptions away. It makes no sense and doesn't address the problem.  You don't strip rights from innocent people in order to clean up criminals.

Most Australians don't understand America and its background nor do they want to understand it because we here are indoctrinated otherwise by our politicians and mass media.



You're not going to get anywhere with him on this topic especially so if he was actually a cop. The idea that people could defend themselves against their government and their uniformed officers or soldiers scares the shit out of them and Australia has a very dicey history in that regard.

The American government has tanks and fighter jets and shit.  WTF are guns against that?  LOL!  Fight back against the government.  That's ridiculous.



Get with the times.

And it's troops have to have the willingness to turn those weapons on their own people, ......family/friends. Not going to happen.



Get with reality.

Such polls of US military personnel happen from time to time and the indications are towards progressively following orders before following consciences. Much like the stand downs and subsequent career assassinations which happened within AFRICOM during Christpher Steven's death in a satellite compound for CIA weapons bazaar, the US military is abruptly shaved where any stubble on policy might arise.

I want to remind you that throughout history governments have ALWAYS been better equipped than the revolutionaries.That has not always been the deciding factor in a violent struggle for change.

Agreed.

The US itself is living proof of that. Canadians and Aussies will never understand because your national psyche was and it think still is, one of ambivalence when it comes to your independence. You people got what was left of the tyrant after what we in the US went thru. 18TH century British ego and their overbearing heavy handed style of governing was severely reduced and forever changed after they got humiliated in front of the entire world (TWICE) I might add, by the fledgling US. It was a case where a vastly superior military force learn hard lessons that have been repeated over and over again by governments all over the world.

There's far more to it than just that.

Your people have never been thru it so it has not shaped or effected your way of thinking.  It's a good thing because if pushed into an untenable position by your governments you are I'll equipped to do anything about it. And unfortunately, you are all too pussified at this point to do more than whine and cry. That sad fact is played out and evident right here on this forum day after day.

You probably don't understand Aussie politics and I dare say know nothing of Australian history. If you'd like to understand better, simply ask Spectre, I, or both (he and I are sure to have different views at any rate).

[@realAzhyaAryola]

"Pessimist"?????......No, "realist" the proper term. But I am grumpy, I'll give you that.



I say you are wrong. I have history and military experience and tactical knowledge on my side, what do you have...Opinion? last I checked opinion is not good enough to prove a point.

Opinion. I've noticed this in the forums. There's just too many opinions pouring in from every direction yet, these are just opinions. If someone's got such a profound opinion on how to change the world or the community, what are they doing crusading for their opinions in an internet forum? They should go out there and change what they want to change based on their opinions. Their opinions are withering away in an internet archive to be erased by one mere click. If it were that "great," I hope they would apply it out there in the real world and let's see them, their opinions, and their names hot off the press in the morning paper.



Sometimes, I'm in a hurry to go somewhere and then I find myself delayed because I'm reading someone's lengthy post and then I ask myself, "Why am I reading this!?"



Fall out.

[Wulf]

Do you think the US military would remain 100% loyal if the cause the people had was seen as just. Despite what you think you know, you don't really understand the American psyche nor the mission and temperament of its military. I think I know it a little better than you or anyone here.



Just so you know the US currently has a significant number of veterans living as private citizens who would more than be ready to answer a call to arms should it ever come to an extreme and unthinkable situation. Why you would be astonished as to my position on this I cannot fathom. First an foremost I am a citizen of the US and should our government ever forget that they exist to serve the people I would be more than willing to remind them of their place be it at the voting booth or on a field of fire. Just about anyone who serves or has served in the US military feels the same way. Who do you think the average US soldier owes his allegiance to....the government????? Fuck no, it's to the people. We take an oath to protect the country and we owe or loyalty to the principals that founded this nation, not the politicians in Washington. Just as the politicians are supposed to serve the people so is the military.



BTW, who do you think those "armed dissidents" were during the American Revolution? They were American citizens.

As to your assertion that the Nazis took control of Germany by peaceful means, all I can say is you have obviously skipped over the "Night of the Longknives" and the events leading up to it. You also seem to be unaware that there was a paramilitary arm of the Nazi party (Brownshirts). Their sole purpose was to forcibly subdue the political opposition through violent means. If you can find a living member of the communist party that existed in Germany in 1934 YOU could ask him or her if the Nazis took control peaceably. In 1934, I think all in total there were about 4000 commies arrested, and hundreds killed in fighting against the Nazis. Does that sound like taking control by peaceful means?

I would not pretend to know where your military's allegiance would lie in the case of major civil unrest and national rebellion. I defer to your greater knowledge in that regard.



The point I'm making is that if the military stays loyal to the government, then all the armed civilians in the US would not succeed in overthrowing the politicians.



And politicians know that...which is why they appoint and monitor their generals very, very carefully. As they do everywhere.

Agreed but remember, Generals are only as good as their chain of command. Those who work for them have to believe in what they are doing is right. I can only point to the American Civil War when the best of the best commanders went over to the rebels because they felt their allegiance to a principle took precedence over their allegiance to what they felt was a tyrannical central government.

[Wulf]

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