Should I pack this in bear country?

[Anonymous]

This isn't too far from where I live.  I guess this stupid guy got "stuck in a tree?"  I didn't even think that was possible!  I'm guessing they just wanted to get it before it took off, since you can't have 'em roaming around schools!



Not a very big guy, but could still do some damage!  I guess this is how they hoist 'em down!    









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[Renee]

Renee, Renee, Renee...



What you post are more opinions than pure facts.  However, since you've taken the time, I shall respond.



It is purely your own opinion that a .45-70 is a superior round than a 12 Gauge slug at close range defense against larger game.  The FACT is that 12 Gauge slug is at the very least just as effective, if not more so in this scenario.  Don't take my word for it...  Find out what many Alaskan and BC guides carry as a defense firearm.  I'll give you one guess as to what it is, and it starts with a "12," just so ya know.

First off just let me say that there is a big difference between Alaskan and BC guides and you....It's a little something called "expierence". They know what to do in a dangerous situation and how to do it properly and still more than a few have been mauled or killed. And if you do the research you will see that they are pretty much split on the 12ga and a heavy .44 or better rifle caliber for close bear encounters. Those that prefer a heavy rifle do so partly because they know that the sectional density of a rifle bullet needs to be at least .20 for good penetration while retaining mass and energy on a heavily muscled animal like a grizzly. A 12ga slug has only mass. It's sectional density is on average .15 which on paper is adequate for thin skinned game such as deer but not for a big tough bear. It also sheds energy faster than you can empty a 40oz bottle of Colt 45. That is ballistic and scientific fact and not opinion. Just because some local yokel, forest ranger says a 12ga slug is the ultimate in bear stopping equipment, it doesnt mean I would stake my life on it, you do what you want.



Unless you have seen a bear skinned and field dressed, you really have no clue as to how tough of a hide, muscle and bone those animals have.

don't give me no bullshit about perfect "shot placement" required...  I have already explained that this is more than likely not possible when you only have a few seconds left to live.  Center mass is often the best that could be hoped for in the scenario.  You think you'll have time to get off a perfect spinal shot?  Maybe you get lucky...  I don't know.

Mel, I'm I'm not talking about the "perfect shot", dumbass. I'm talking about the common wisdom and mechanics behind giving yourself the best chance of survival. When getting charged by a bear try to aim for the point of impact where the snout should be. Bears run with a loping gate, meaning that their front end rises and falls with each stride. In a frontal charge, theoretically it gives the best chance of hitting something vital. As the bear's front end rises the shot will go low and hit the chest. As the bears front end comes down the shot will go high and strike either the top of the head or the shoulders and spine, that is if you keep your cool and do everything right. Most people who fire on a charging animal without at least having a clue as to what to do, will panic and fuck up, with catastrophic results. Do you think that professional guides or hunters just poke and hope?...  Ask yourself this.....do you want to survive the attack, or do you want to end up as bear shit? Shot placement, even in rushed emergency situations, is key to survival.



That brings me back to "experience". Experience with killing an animal up close and personal and experience with "kill or be killed" situations....which you and most of the population have niether of.

just because I do not hunt, has no bearing on how a self-defense issue can be handled.  I can assure you I have seen people that do not hunt, that could shoot blindfolded better than you or I.  Practice is the key, and this doesn't include patiently taking down a grazing Bambi @ 100 yards.  That is something completely different.  It's like telling me that SWAT Team members are just no good, unless they hunt.  That's not how it works.

Yes practice is important and please forgive me...I forgot...you are the big pet cat shooter....So how many charging bears have you practiced on...do you do it in your living room?...Can we come over and watch?

don't you even DARE question my ability to walk through the woods...  Remember, I am the one with a great physical physique!  You, on the other hand, well?  Enough said about that!

Yeah, that is enough said about that...You and and a few other thick skulled morons would like to assume that I am some fat lazy slob simply because from time to time, I have jokingly make disparaging remarks about my appearance. Well I guess that's the downside of not being a self-absorbed, delusional, alcoholic, dimbulb... :001_rolleyes:



And let's be real..the only way you are ever going into the woods is if you get wind of some sneaky indian hiding his or her stash of stolen Bud Lite out in the frickin leaves.

Now while I appreciate your contributions, I would just urge you to perhaps focus a little bit more on facts, as opposed to your opinions and beliefs, which are clearly not always rooted in facts.



Now, I know you like your .45-70, but I'm not convinced it's the 'do all' that you seem to claim it to be, nor am I convinced that everything you post is pure fact either.  Then again, opinions are just like assholes...

MEL,...everything I've discussed here is rooted in fact. So I guess my assertions regarding sectional density and how it affects terminal bullet performance is straight out of my ass... ...Oh well, you win...



What you are missing in your rush to assume that a 12ga is good angry bear medicine, is the fact that there are at least some better options out there. Now I understand your reluctance to invest in another firearm that will probably just sit in your closet and gather dust. I on the other hand will usually jump at any excuse to buy a new gun, even if I have a limited use for it. I do the same with cameras and jewelry so I guess that's my thing. Anyway, have fun hiking...dont forget to post lots of pics of all that pristine Canadian wildeness you will be in walking through.



Oh and Mel, don't worry, any bear will smell you coming from at least 5 miles away and unless they have a craving for pickled liver.....they will leave you the fuck alone...

[Anonymous]

By the way, have you ever fired slugs thru that bird gun? Do you know where they go at any given yardage? Don't  assume just because you have a improved cylinder choke that it's going to shoot straight. Also better check if the Browning choke tubes are okay to fire slugs or buck shot. Some choke systems say it's  not advisable. I'm not sure where Browning stands on that.

Browning says Improved Cylinder is choice for slugs, as do most other shotgun manufacturers...  And lead buckshot can be fired through any modern choke.  Steel may be a different story, but Browning modern chokes are made for steel also.  Come on Renee, get with the program...  It's clear to me that you haven't brushed up on shot-gun etiquette for quite some time.  No fox hunt for you!  You can slum with the bums, while I enjoy tea-time with royalty after the fox hunt, ya bum!



I/C or Cylinder is A-OK for slugs.  And of COURSE it won't be mega-accurate at longer ranges!  That's not what they were designed for!



Remember I'm talking about close-range defense, and not long-range hunting abilities!

Okay dumbass. You asked for it....



It's quite clear that you have very little clue as to what you are talking about. You have circle jerked this discussion no end and you have mouthed off like a fool as usual. You have no clue about the sectional density of bullets nor do you understand terminal performance or wound cavity science. Furthermore you like to go off on tangents comparing rounds mpre suitable for hunting at range and rounds more suitable for close quarters encounters, which is irrelevant to the discussion. Also it's obvious that you have no clue as to were your pump gun throws a slug regardless of the diameter choke tube you have in it. Have you ever sighted the damn thing in? And I dont mean punching holes in a cat carrier from 10 feet away.



The 45-70 govt. or better yet, the .450 marlin, are proven close quarters grizzly stoppers. They generally come in a handy package and are hard hitting, large frontal mass bullets with decent sectional density, designed to give adequate penetration to stop a charging bear. As I've said before, your choice of a 12 gauge, rifled, soft, foster style slug is inferior by comparison and only a fool would argue otherwise. But true to form you step right up....



 I also find it laughable that you disparage the 45-70 based on its age while extolling the virtues of the .375 Holland and Holland, when any firearms aficionado knows that the 375 H&H is also and old bastard of a cartridge, introduced in 1912 as a tea bagger, cordite based round... Your ignorance as it pretains to the subject is showing once again. While a medium sized belted mag like the 375 H&H is an excellent hunting round for dangerous game, it generally does not come in a rifle that lends itself to close encounters, unless you are talking a very, very expensive SxS double rifle. It is also outclassed by newer rounds such as the .375 Ackly improved, both the .300 and .338 Weatherby mag, .300 Rem. Ultra mag, or even the venerable 416 rigby along with it's nasty, barrel eating, Lapua offspring. I'm not even going to get into the fact that in an emergency bear encounter, a neophyte like you would probably fumble fuck a heavy recoiling bolt action chambered in 375 H&H or the like, and end up on the bears dinner table.



That brings me to the the issue of you carrying a firearm  for any kind of self defense against 4 legged or even 2 legged predators.... I dont advise it. You admittedly have never hunted. Other than drowning yourself a large bottle of bottom shelf vodka, you probably have no real experience with life threatening situations. You probably don't understand or can even recognize the value of proper bullet placement. Do you even know the recommended point of impact you should aim for on a charging bear or the lethal logic behind it?...Probably not. You probably dont have the stones to do it anyway.



That is why I'm going to change my POV on this and sincerely recommend pepper spray as a bear repellent. It's fast and easy enough to use, even for a half smoked up alky like you. Furthermore, there is mounting a d very persuasive field evidence suggesting that the outcome of the use of pepper spray on an angry bear has greater success than the use of a firearm of any kind. Especially when said firearm is in the hands of a novice like you.



Furthermore, I hate to be disrespectful and bust your bubble, but let's YOU be serious for once. You aren't going hiking in bear country or any terrain rougher than the local dive bar in Langley...The chances of anyone seeing you and that red face of yours, huffing and puffing your way through the brush, sporting a full pack while humping that 5 dollar Walmart pump gun are slim to none. So let's just cut the bullshit, shall we?

I know more about guns than you Renee.  



Seriously though, this is impressive.

[Anonymous]

[Angry White Male]

And if you do the research you will see that they are pretty much split on the 12ga and a heavy .44 or better rifle caliber for close bear encounters.

The FIRST thing you have posted that is rooted in fact.  Thank you for at least acknowledging this FACT, instead of shitting up the discussion with how much you feel the 12 Gauge is utterly useless for anything, as well as trying to be funny (even though you're not) with put-downs that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.



I have done my homework, which is why it has taken you SEVEN FUCKING PAGES to state what I already knew on the very first page.



And don't assume I'm new to gun ownership.  I have owned a couple dozen shotguns, rifles, pistols and revolvers over the last almost 20 years or so now, and have shot the snot out of them all...  and these are just the ones I've personally owned.



Don't assume because I do not hunt, that I cannot shoot.  I could easily drop a deer if I wanted to, if that would make me a "qualified" marksman, but as such it is something that I do not desire to do.  Not that I have a problem with hunting, it's just something that does not really appeal to me personally.  I pass no judgement on those that do.

[Angry White Male]

The bears wander around all over here.  Problem bears are shot all the time.



Renee may have a misconception as to just how close we live here to bears.  Not that you'd see that many in the city, but they don't live far off, that's for sure...



When the majority of people that I've known growing up here, have chosen a 12 Gauge slug as their primary weapon of defense, I question other 'offerings"...



Renee has finally admitted that 'around' 50% of true back country peoples rely on this round here, and in Alaska.



50%.



Renee just found this out, and is now going to try to sling some cute insults my way, because she 'knows best'...

[Angry White Male]

50%, Renee.  One cartridge.  



People that actively populate Grizzly country.



Are you going to make some more jokes, or pretend to be smarter than you actually are?



I understand that your fan-base here, while they are All-American and as such like guns...



You have run into a 'foreigner' that probably knows guns better than your fans or your next door neighbour does.



When I have to explain chokes to you, I know I'm in trouble.

[Anonymous]

For the record, I think this troll is dead on its feet.



I've had a few discussions with Renee over various aspects of the shooting sports, and while I could make the sort of lame effort I'm seeing here to assert some kind of dominant position over her, I have better things to do.



As for you, I have nothing to offer beyond stating that I'm at least your equal in firearms knowledge, understanding and experience.



And I'm not gonna go back and re-read the thread, but IIRC neither one of you actually explained shotgun chokes in a way that satisfied my own effete standards for good technical writing.  Thus, I personally reject any effort to extend the on-topic lifespan of this thread any further.  Carry on if you wish, but I've probably left the building.

[Angry White Male]

I'm supposed to feel bad that you've left the thread?  



You've contributed nothing in the first place!



And if shotgun chokes weren't 'explained to you well enough,' just ask whatever question you have about them.



I can assure you Renee isn't the only one here that can answer simple questions like this...

[Renee]

And if you do the research you will see that they are pretty much split on the 12ga and a heavy .44 or better rifle caliber for close bear encounters.

The FIRST thing you have posted that is rooted in fact.  Thank you for at least acknowledging this FACT, instead of shitting up the discussion with how much you feel the 12 Gauge is utterly useless for anything, as well as trying to be funny (even though you're not) with put-downs that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.



I have done my homework, which is why it has taken you SEVEN FUCKING PAGES to state what I already knew on the very first page.



And don't assume I'm new to gun ownership.  I have owned a couple dozen shotguns, rifles, pistols and revolvers over the last almost 20 years or so now, and have shot the snot out of them all...  and these are just the ones I've personally owned.



Don't assume because I do not hunt, that I cannot shoot.  I could easily drop a deer if I wanted to, if that would make me a "qualified" marksman, but as such it is something that I do not desire to do.  Not that I have a problem with hunting, it's just something that does not really appeal to me personally.  I pass no judgement on those that do.

Again Mel, you are missing the point. I don't know why I should expect you to get it, I guess I'm just an optimist at heart....But you go ahead and do what you want and even if you're wrong, what's the worst that can happen?....



But as I previously stated, you aren't going hiking. You are just posting shit for the sake of posting for attention;.. just like most of the utter nonsense you fling around here. I guess this is what you call "adding quality" to the forum....threads that are complete bullshit along with  your nonsensical drunken musings on life....



As for your expeirence...a lot of people own guns....A lot of people shoot guns....it doesnt necessarily mean they know what they are doing although most of them think they do....No matter, I bow to your expeirence....But just as a reminder, who was it that taught you why the sights on your 66 are regulated for 25 yards from the factory? A knowledgeable and experienced gun owner would have known this without me having to tell them.  Maybe your homework isn't quite so complete.



BTW, isn't it about time that you grace this place with  another alcohol inflamed melt down and declared a permanent exit...I think you're about a week overdue...

[Angry White Male]

Unlike you, Renee, I am physically capable of wandering around the woods.  Believe it or not, I can do such things on a whim.

[Renee]

Unlike you, Renee, I am physically capable of wandering around the woods.  Believe it or not, I can do such things on a whim.

Since you are so "physically capable"...maybe I'll  call you the next time I have a 1/2 ton of 40lb bags of wood pellets that have to be unloaded from my truck. Or maybe the next time I have a couple of cords of wood to stack.



I'll give you 10 bucks, a bus ticket, and a six of PBR,....

[Anonymous]

Unlike you, Renee, I am physically capable of wandering around the woods.  Believe it or not, I can do such things on a whim.

Since you are so "physically capable"...maybe I'll  call you the next time I have a 1/2 ton of 40lb bags of wood pellets that have to be unloaded from my truck. Or maybe the next time I have a couple of cords of wood to stack.



I'll give you 10 bucks, a bus ticket, and a six of PBR,....

What do you use them for Renee?

[Renee]

Unlike you, Renee, I am physically capable of wandering around the woods.  Believe it or not, I can do such things on a whim.

Since you are so "physically capable"...maybe I'll  call you the next time I have a 1/2 ton of 40lb bags of wood pellets that have to be unloaded from my truck. Or maybe the next time I have a couple of cords of wood to stack.



I'll give you 10 bucks, a bus ticket, and a six of PBR,....

What do you use them for Renee?

Heating....fuel for the pellet stove.

[Anonymous]

Unlike you, Renee, I am physically capable of wandering around the woods.  Believe it or not, I can do such things on a whim.

Since you are so "physically capable"...maybe I'll  call you the next time I have a 1/2 ton of 40lb bags of wood pellets that have to be unloaded from my truck. Or maybe the next time I have a couple of cords of wood to stack.



I'll give you 10 bucks, a bus ticket, and a six of PBR,....

What do you use them for Renee?

Heating....fuel for the pellet stove.

Is each pellet really small?