Quote from: Shen Li on August 26, 2025, 09:50:09 PMI'm not a mythicist. There's a possibility that Jesus of Nazareth existed. But, he was not born of a virgin. The Bible doesn't even state that. That story was stolen from earlier religions.

Definitions change for a variety of reasons; you saw an example of that recently with the redefining of the words "vaccine". This is not exactly a new concept.

The unearthing of the Dead Sea Scrolls has led scholars to understand that the definition of "virgin" was a lot closer to "barren" than it was to "person who has never had a fuck". Exactly when this particular shift in the nomenclature happened is unclear; it might have been before the Council of Rome determined which gospels to include and exclude, it may have been later. What does seem apparent however is that there was a definite bias towards the texts that deified Jesus at the expense of those that leaned more towards his mortality. Which would honestly make sense to do from a religious standpoint; it's a much taller ask to challenge a supernatural authority than someone who is more or less your equal, no?

Another word that held a definitively different interpretation was "resurrection". An ancient Roman concept, it was the restoration of ones titles and possessions. Around the time this was discovered the scrolls were all shipped off to the Vatican and only those who enjoyed the favour of the church were afforded their study henceforth.

But evidence of a disconnect of understanding yet persists should you read the bible and compare its verses. Perhaps one if the more blatant ones to persist (and even within competing flavours of Christianity itself) would be the actual number of gods. None of us should be arrogant enough to claim a definitive count of "one God" when there are those who regard Jesus as God and others that claim him as the son of God (trinitarian vs non-trinitarian); additionally it seems that God is contradicting himself when in Corinthians and Isiah he is explicitly stating things like "there is no God but Me" while acknowledging the existence of other gods in Deuteronomy and demanding he take precedent over them.

Dove is right to point out that the original texts are many and varied, I would also point out that a good many of these were oral traditions for centuries before being committed to papyrus. To have such a collection, both an incomplete collection of the ancient legends as well as its surviving texts translated and retranslated so long after their initial orators and scribes drew their final breaths... well it doesn't exactly lend itself towards a definitive accounting of historical accuracy. Some choose to argue their interpretation from a position of their own Faith; I'm not one of them any more than I can take it on faith that there is an absence of any God simply because some atheist has picked a myriad of holes in the argument. One God.... Many Gods... No God... ALL of these options require faith in an unproven belief to the average agnostic.

Again though, each competing "sky fairy" has proven unifying in their own way among the people that preach them. There is the value (at least as far as I see it) because its works have included societies that functioned more or less smoothly under its governance.

Without which we would have been little better than your average virus, propagating ourselves without reference to every other viral particle in the vicinity, consuming and subsuming everything to further the individual's dominance over all else. The Bible and other books like it afford us an understanding of the framework we might employ to realise our existence as something more than the sum of our individual parts, if nothing else.   

Quote from: caskur on August 29, 2025, 11:18:55 AMOnce you reach your 60s, you start losing older relatives... everyone will go through it... we were talking to one of our old friends 77 who's mum will be turning 104 in December... her mind is still perfect and she has never been on a pension. He has just put her in a home... she just wants to die. She's had enough.

I've never known a centenarian caskur.

Quote from: formosan on August 29, 2025, 10:46:42 AMI am sorry for your losses caskur.

Once you reach your 60s, you start losing older relatives... everyone will go through it... we were talking to one of our old friends 77 who's mum will be turning 104 in December... her mind is still perfect and she has never been on a pension. He has just put her in a home... she just wants to die. She's had enough.

Quote from: caskur on August 29, 2025, 10:30:14 AMIf you want to know the Bible I am qualified to teach it, up to a point.

But for months now, this year particularly, every night I become overwhelmed with sadness. I have lost many many people to death. And because I am down hearted and a bit of a misery guts over losing so many, teaching Biblical stuff isn't where I am working well atm.

So I will leave you all with this notion, if you want to get to know God for real, start talking to him in silent prayer. He listens.

Love is the most important thing... agape love. Agape is the Greek word for unconditional love.

 

I am sorry for your losses caskur.

If you want to know the Bible I am qualified to teach it, up to a point.

But for months now, this year particularly, every night I become overwhelmed with sadness. I have lost many many people to death. And because I am down hearted and a bit of a misery guts over losing so many, teaching Biblical stuff isn't where I am working well atm.

So I will leave you all with this notion, if you want to get to know God for real, start talking to him in silent prayer. He listens.

Love is the most important thing... agape love. Agape is the Greek word for unconditional love.

 

Quote from: Dove on August 26, 2025, 03:04:52 PMThe Bible never fails to elicit strong feelings and opinions and i learned a long time ago that there is aways a deeper more personal reason for all of that.

It absolutely has that affect.

How about a little religious humour.

I'm not a mythicist. There's a possibility that Jesus of Nazareth existed. But, he was not born of a virgin. The Bible doesn't even state that. That story was stolen from earlier religions. And Jesus would have been married and had a family.

Quote from: Dove on August 26, 2025, 08:13:43 PMNo its not "wrong", its just not the order WE would write it in.

 Its an ancient text, in an ancient language, from an ancient culture. So its not something you can pick up and read just as if its a modern day body of English lit. Its very different.

 This is why people get so confused by all the different translations. You really gotta have a grasp on what you are dealing with when it comes to any ancient text.

 It takes effort to really read and exegete any old literature, even lit written in old English 1000s of years ago. When it comes to the Bible....this was all ancient Hebrew.

 To them it was in perfect order. They even read left to right, and they had no vowels.  I have a Torah (the Old Testament) and its so pretty to look at....but good luck ever read it as a modern English speaker lol. I have relied heavily on lexicons and dictionaries and reading about the times. 

 Im faaaarrr from expert level, but i got what i was looking for out of it and i dont mind conversations about it when asked.

It's also been copied from other earlier written works and from the gospel of Mark which is the oldest of the canonical gospels. And we don't know the authors.

Here is another irreconcilable contradiction. It comes from the Christmas account.

In Luke's gospel, Jesus is born, Mary has to make an offering in the temple, and then they go straight back to Nazareth, which is about 160 kms to the north up in Galilee.

In Matthew's gospel. Jesus is born, and Joseph is warned that Herod is now going to try and kill the child. And so, Joseph takes the family and goes down to Egypt, and they stay there till Herod dies. When they hear that Herod died, they come back. They can't resettle in Bethlehem like they want. They resettle in Nazareth.

If Matthew is right that they went down to Egypt for months or years or however long, how can Luke be right that they immediately return to Nazareth?

Quote from: Herman on August 26, 2025, 07:56:57 PMLook kid, the contents of the bible don't mean much to most folks. myself included. But, it does look like they got the order wrong in that example. That would be a contradiction. I think so anyway.

 No its not "wrong", its just not the order WE would write it in.

 Its an ancient text, in an ancient language, from an ancient culture. So its not something you can pick up and read just as if its a modern day body of English lit. Its very different.

 This is why people get so confused by all the different translations. You really gotta have a grasp on what you are dealing with when it comes to any ancient text.

 It takes effort to really read and exegete any old literature, even lit written in old English 1000s of years ago. When it comes to the Bible....this was all ancient Hebrew.

 To them it was in perfect order. They even read left to right, and they had no vowels.  I have a Torah (the Old Testament) and its so pretty to look at....but good luck ever read it as a modern English speaker lol. I have relied heavily on lexicons and dictionaries and reading about the times. 

 Im faaaarrr from expert level, but i got what i was looking for out of it and i dont mind conversations about it when asked.

Quote from: Dove on August 26, 2025, 07:25:47 PMWhat is the contradiction here?

 Im genuinely asking because im not sure where you see a contradiction with this?

 Chapter two in Genesis is a more detailed telling of events from chapter 1....its not like a continuation of the narrative.

 The books of the Bible can be tricky because the ancient Hebrews didnt express events the same way we do, so there is a a lot of jumping around.

 If we were writing it, we would have put chapter 1 and 2 together....where as the Hebrew writer wrote out the first chapter and then in chapter two went back into more depth on the creation of humans.

 Not sure if im typing this out properly. 

Look kid, the contents of the bible don't mean much to most folks. myself included. But, it does look like they got the order wrong in that example. That would be a contradiction. I think so anyway.

Quote from: Shen Li on August 26, 2025, 05:48:31 PMFirst of all I just want to say, I don't care about anybody's religion. That is as long as they don't try to force it on society.

I started this thread because I was feeling feisty. I wanted to argue with white people.

There are literally dozens of contradictions in the bible. Fundamentalist Xtian apologists always try to explain it. They have to since they believe in the relatively new concept of inerrancy.

Right from the beginning in Genesis 1:1-2:3, it unfolds in a structured, ordered sequence over six days, culminating in the creation of humanity (male and female) together on the sixth day.

In Genesis 2:4-25, however, the narrative is more focused on human formation. Here, man (Adam) is created first from the dust of the ground, followed by vegetation, animals, and finally, a woman (Eve) as a helper.

I can give lots of examples, but if you believe in the North American fundamentalist idea of inerrancy/infallibility of the bible you will be forced to find an explanation.

 What is the contradiction here?

 Im genuinely asking because im not sure where you see a contradiction with this?

 Chapter two in Genesis is a more detailed telling of events from chapter 1....its not like a continuation of the narrative.

 The books of the Bible can be tricky because the ancient Hebrews didnt express events the same way we do, so there is a a lot of jumping around.

 If we were writing it, we would have put chapter 1 and 2 together....where as the Hebrew writer wrote out the first chapter and then in chapter two went back into more depth on the creation of humans.

 Not sure if im typing this out properly. 

Quote from: Dove on August 26, 2025, 02:27:47 PMIts not different versions. Its different translations.

 Its an ancient text written in ancient languages from the perspectives of an ancient culture.

 The only legit contradiction is between two of the gospels. One says Judas hung himself and the other says he impaled himself.

 All the other things people view as contradictions have logic explainations or are more clarified by a deeper study of the text.

 Its a super heavy topic and one i dont usually have the mental or emotionally energy to discuss on forums. I come here to spew. I like mostly mindless and silly...shits and giggles posting.

 That doesnt mean im opposed to a discussion but i tend to lack the drive to get into arguements about it.

 When it comes down to it, if someone is put off or just rejects it, no amount of arguing about it is going to change their minds. Faith is a personal journey for each individual. Sometimes understanding the Bible takes more effort than a person wants to use on it. If they dont WANT to make that effort, no amount of arguing with them will change their minds.

 If anything it puts them off even more and agitates them.

First of all I just want to say, I don't care about anybody's religion. That is as long as they don't try to force it on society.

I started this thread because I was feeling feisty. I wanted to argue with white people.

There are literally dozens of contradictions in the bible. Fundamentalist Xtian apologists always try to explain it. They have to since they believe in the relatively new concept of inerrancy.

Right from the beginning in Genesis 1:1-2:3, it unfolds in a structured, ordered sequence over six days, culminating in the creation of humanity (male and female) together on the sixth day.

In Genesis 2:4-25, however, the narrative is more focused on human formation. Here, man (Adam) is created first from the dust of the ground, followed by vegetation, animals, and finally, a woman (Eve) as a helper.

I can give lots of examples, but if you believe in the North American fundamentalist idea of inerrancy/infallibility of the bible you will be forced to find an explanation.

 

Quote from: Thiel on August 26, 2025, 02:38:22 PMThe very last sentence is so true.

 The Bible never fails to elicit strong feelings and opinions and i learned a long time ago that there is aways a deeper more personal reason for all of that.

Quote from: Dove on August 26, 2025, 02:27:47 PMIts not different versions. Its different translations.

 Its an ancient text written in ancient languages from the perspectives of an ancient culture.

 The only legit contradiction is between two of the gospels. One says Judas hung himself and the other says he impaled himself.

 All the other things people view as contradictions have logic explainations or are more clarified by a deeper study of the text.

 Its a super heavy topic and one i dont usually have the mental or emotionally energy to discuss on forums. I come here to spew. I like mostly mindless and silly...shits and giggles posting.

 That doesnt mean im opposed to a discussion but i tend to lack the drive to get into arguements about it.

 When it comes down to it, if someone is put off or just rejects it, no amount of arguing about it is going to change their minds. Faith is a personal journey for each individual. Sometimes understanding the Bible takes more effort than a person wants to use on it. If they dont WANT to make that effort, no amount of arguing with them will change their minds.

 If anything it puts them off even more and agitates them.

The very last sentence is so true.