The kingdom that poisons the world.
Saudi Arabia, Wahhabism and the Spread of Sunni Theofascism
http://www.globalpolitician.com/23661-saudi#_ftn15
The kingdom in the closet
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... e-closet...
Saudi Arabia is 'biggest funder of terrorists'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... iggest-f...
Saudis fund sale of children trained as terrorists and suicide bombers
http://undhimmi.com/2011/05/23/saudi-gu ... n-traine...
Saudis export anti-Christian and anti-Jewish textbooks across the world
http://abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&Id=268755
Saudi high school text book preaches hate
http://www.investigativeproject.org/333 ... reaches-...
The UK's 'Undercover Mosque' scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercover_Mosque
If you live in England, contact lawyer Gavin Boby at http://lawandfreedomfoundation.org/ and he'll be happy to give you all the free help and advice you need to stop a Saudi-funded mosque being built near you.
What goes on in a mosque - evidence from America
http://lawandfreedomfoundation.org/2011 ... que-near...
Police go undercover in mosque to find terrorists
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15840339
American mosques: Jihad's incubators
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/37314
Sharia and violence in American mosques
http://www.meforum.org/2931/american-mosques
Mosques as barracks in America
http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/06/ ... ica_1.html
Anti-gay bigotry at the East London mosque
http://hurryupharry.org/2011/07/04/anti ... osque-an...
Gay hate mosque opens school
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pens-new...
Saudi school lessons in UK concern government
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11799713
Islamic schools teach anti-Semitism and homophobia
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/no ... ols-anti...
Destroy all churches in the Arabian peninsula - Saudi Grand Mufti
http://www.rt.com/news/peninsula-saudi-grand-mufti-701/
Christian evangelist threatened with death penalty in Saudi Arabia
http://barnabasfund.org/UK/News/Archive ... ned-with...
Christians imprisoned for worshipping at home
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Persecution/D ... id=1524600
OIC Urges Ban on Relgious Intolerance . . . Saudis Ignore Message
http://suite101.com/article/oic-urges-b ... saudis-i...
Muslim countries target free speech - with help from the US
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/12 ... y-20111210
Could you be a criminal? US supports UN anti free speech measure
http://www.forbes.com/sites/abigailesma ... iminal-u...
US, EU spearhead Islamic bid to criminalise free speech
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2734/ ... ree-speech
Free speech found guilty by Europe
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3026/ ... -acquitted
Lecturer fined for calling Koran 'evil'
http://austrianindependent.com/news/Pol ... _fined_f...
The lawsuit against Lars Hedegaard: A warning to all
http://www.internationalfreepresssociet ... 0/09/4087/
Wahhabi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi
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Islam is a vile ideology. Fundamentalists are the same as KKKer's or skinheads.
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Islam is only as vile as those who practice it. Like all religions Islam is at the whim of its followers. If its followers choose to be ignorant hardline savages then that is how it will be perceived by the so-called infidels.
Quote from: "Renee"
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Islam is only as vile as those who practice it. Like all religions Islam is at the whim of its followers. If its followers choose to be ignorant hardline savages then that is how it will be perceived by the so-called infidels.
I beg to differ on this one Renee. It is a vile hideous ideology that should be outlawed.
Quote
Verse 4:34
"Men have authority over women because Allah has made one superior to the other...Good women are obedient...As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Allah is high, supreme." Another translatin reads, "The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme."
The Koran is quite clear as to the position of women. Here it clear states that men are superior to women who are inferior. And men are cauthorized to use violence against women, specifically to beat them until they learn to obey. The Koran indicates that beating women is the last alternative, but it is an alternsative sanctified by God. Some passages of the Koran are somewhat vague. This one seems crystal clear.
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Renee"
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Islam is only as vile as those who practice it. Like all religions Islam is at the whim of its followers. If its followers choose to be ignorant hardline savages then that is how it will be perceived by the so-called infidels.
I beg to differ on this one Renee. It is a vile hideous ideology that should be outlawed.
Quote
Verse 4:34
"Men have authority over women because Allah has made one superior to the other...Good women are obedient...As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Allah is high, supreme." Another translatin reads, "The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme."
The Koran is quite clear as to the position of women. Here it clear states that men are superior to women who are inferior. And men are cauthorized to use violence against women, specifically to beat them until they learn to obey. The Koran indicates that beating women is the last alternative, but it is an alternsative sanctified by God. Some passages of the Koran are somewhat vague. This one seems crystal clear.
Most religions treat women as second class or worse. Just to put it in perspective, to the hardline Christians women are to blame for almost all the sin in the world.
These quote con from the Torah. Is Judaism a vile ideology as well?
"It's worth knowing that a woman is unfit to be a judge, and is also unfit to give testimony. She is unfit for any public position with authority. "Thou shalt appoint a king over thee" - a king and not a queen."
"A daughter, commanded the sages, must not be taught Torah, because "the mind of woman is not suited to be taught, but [only] to words of nonsense." Women are light-minded and have little knowledge. "
"And if a man and a woman are drowning in a river, first they'll save the man, "who is obligated to perform more commandments," whereas a woman's "wisdom is only in the spindle." In fact, "words of Torah should be burned rather than being given to women."
"A man must say three blessings every day during morning prayers: He thanks God "that He didn't make me a gentile, that He didn't make me a woman, that He didn't make me an ignoramus." And it's not proper to speak to a woman too much, since "all her conversation is nothing but words of adultery," and whoever talks to her too much "causes evil to himself and will end up inheriting hell." And let's not even talk about the fate of someone "who looks even at a woman's little finger."
Religion is only as good or as vile as those who practice it. Most of what is written about women in all the major religious tomes is pure ignorant bullshit.
Women as chattel is not a new or restricted theme in religion.
I'm not talking about the brainwashed people who follow the Quran/Hadith. I am talking about the literature itself. It advocates violence and murder.
Quote
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out
Quote from: "Real Woman"
Women are treated like crap in religious teachings because religion was invented by rock brained men so they could bolster their belief that they were and are the keepers of the so-called divine spark. When the great religious books were written it was a male dominate world and thru religious writings men were making sure their control over society would not be threatened. Linking themselves to the almighty was the insurance they needed to solidify their societal superiority.
You have to look at all the religious writings as they pertain to women as the ramblings of the threatened and fragile male ego.
^^What makes Islam unique is the commands of violence/murder.
Quote
Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades,
Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out
Shen about the only religious book that doesn't advocate some kind of violence against the non-believers is the New Testament. The Old Testament is full of shit about smiting the philistines and the repression of women. The Quran has nothing new in it when it comes to violence.
The reality is blaming a book on the actions of those that should know better is the same as or idiotic state department blaming a video for the sack of the US embassy in Libya. It's all a big steaming pile of shit. It's people that need to be held accountable for their actions; blaming a centuries old collection of parchment written by what amounts to a series of imbeciles for the unacceptable behavior of nutjobs is ridiculous.
Quote from: "Renee"
Your first clue that this probably isn't true is the scarcity of Christian terrorist groups. Not too many people are losing their heads to fanatics screaming praises to Jesus (or Moses, Buddha or the many Hindu gods either) as they are to shouts of "Allah Akbar!" That there are so many Islamic terrorist groups composed of fundamentalists (or purists) of the Muslim faith is enough to impress any reasonable person that there is something far more dangerous about Islam.
The old testament is ambiguous. There is nothing as clear as this in it;
Quote
I hate these debates because they make me feel like I am sticking up for Islamic extremists, which I'm not but Shen, there are over 1.6 BILLION Muslims in the world and they aren't all running around killing people.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
I have nominally Muslim friends as I'm sure you do as well. I'm just pointing out that Islam is a hateful ideology that commands violence. If you are a fundy, you support murder.
Fundamentalism is not restricted to Islam.
The problem with religious texts in general a) lack of context b) issues within translation c) broad room for interpretation d) lack of application/relevance in today's day and age.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
The problem with religious texts in general a) lack of context b) issues within translation c) broad room for interpretation d) lack of application/relevance in today's day and age.
The administrator of this forum is a xtian fundy. Yet in all the years I have known her and from meeting her like-minded friends none of them talked about jihad in Jesus name. Must be a problem with Islam literature itself.
I don't think Fash is really a Xtian "fundy".
Islam can't help but be evil
http://www.wnd.com/
Some military analysts and human rights groups say that the Syrian civil war may soon be over – but that reassurance isn't enough to prevent the country's Christians from fleeing from the violence.
Dutch journalist and human rights analyst Martin Janssen reports from Jordan that Christians are fleeing Syria in record numbers. Janssen says the Christian refugees first fled because of an ultimatum.
"An exodus of Christians is taking place in Western Syria," Janssen said. "The Christian population has fled the city of Qusayr, near Homs, following an ultimatum issued by the military chief of the armed opposition, Abdel Salam Harba.
"This is what local sources told Vatican news agency Fides, pointing out that since the conflict broke out, only a thousand of the city's 10,000 faithful, were left, and they are now being forced to flee immediately," Janssen said.
Janssen says the city's mosques have reissued the ultimatum for the Christians to leave.
"Some of the city's mosques have issued the message again, announcing from the minarets: 'Christians must leave Qusayr within six days, ending Friday,'" Janssen said.
Open Doors USA spokesman Jerry Dykstra confirms the Christians' desire to flee the violence but says there are few places to which they can go.
"Although Christians in Syria and leaders do not desire or want to leave, yet the question still prevails, 'What is the free world doing to prepare for that exodus?' a Christian from Syria asks," Dykstra said.
"Who is going to welcome the Syrian Christians?" Dykstra asked. "One Syrian source says that the churches in Syria know very well what happened to the Iraqi Christians.
"They were in many countries not really welcome, so we are afraid that the same will happen to Syrian refugees, and that would be a disaster,'" Dykstra said, quoting the Syrian source.
Dykstra says the pressure to flee comes in many forms.
"Protests, assaults, bombings, thefts [and] kidnappings are all part of daily life in Syria," Dykstra said. "The almost 10 percent Christians of the Syrian population fear for the future, many are already thinking of leaving the country.
"Christians in Syria wonder what will happen with their daily life, when a new government will come to power," Dystra continued. "This uncertain and unknown future might lead to an exodus of Christians from Syria (like what happened to Iraqi Christians), and that is what Syrian Church leaders do expect."
Dykstra compares the Syrian Christians' plight to the Iraqi Christians who fled Iraq after Saddam Hussein was overthrown.
"In Iraq hundreds of thousands Christians left that country due to all the violence targeting them. But where will a Syrian exodus lead to? Which country will welcome hundreds of thousands Christian refugees in a period where borders seem to become more and more closed borders?" Dykstra asked.
Terrorism and foreign policy think tank Gerard Direct stated in a report recently released that the battle for Syria's second largest city could determine whether Assad's regime stands.
"The battle for Syria's second city, Aleppo, is a crucial fight that could determine the direction of the uprising against President Bashar al-Assad," the report said.
Reports coming from Aleppo say the rebels survived an offensive by the Syrian army.
Janssen believes the fight for Aleppo is key in Assad proving that his government can stand. Janssen adds that Assad's problems are being compounded by large numbers of fighters coming from outside Syria.
"At this moment the biggest problems are in Aleppo. I heard that more than 5,000 rebels entered the area across the Turkish border," Janssen said.
Janssen also says ethnic Kurds are entering the fight: "It seems that the Kurdish Democratic Union party (the Syrian branch of the PKK) controls great swaths of land in Syrian Kurdistan. They are at the same time fighting with the Syrian Army and the Free Syrian Army."
"There is some talk about the presence of Peshmerga fighters from Iraqi Kurdistan," Janssen said.
Janssen adds the outside support signals that the rebellion has become a "holy war."
"Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia invented the idea of in indirect military intervention in Syria and the West followed and approved. Money and weapons poured from across the borders into Syria and with them thousands of foreign fighters," Janssen said. "This last development changed the nature of the Syrian crisis profoundly. The crisis became a full-blown, internationally-sponsored, civil war.
"These foreign fighters consider themselves to be holy war warriors, jihadists fighting against an atheist regime. They are not interested in democracy and human rights for minorities. It paved the way for a dangerous and growing presence of al-Qaida inside Syria," Janssen said.
Christian human rights group Open Doors USA confirms Janssen's conclusion, saying that al-Qaeda has joined the fight.
"According to Reuters News, the rebels include the Free Syrian Army, al-Qaeda-style jihadists, the Muslim Brotherhood and local pro-democracy Sunni liberals," the Open Doors report said.
The Open Doors report also says that while Assad is unpopular, Christians aren't supporting Assad's overthrow.
"While the defeat of Assad and the military would be welcome news to most, the sizeable Christian community of over 1.5 million is fearful for its future," the Open Doors report said.
"Under Assad, Christians enjoyed a measure of freedom to worship in Syria, which is 90 percent Muslim. In fact, Christians were granted a degree of religious freedom not seen in most other Middle Eastern countries – before and after Arab Spring," the Open Doors report also said.
"If Assad falls, Christians in Syria are fearful of what will happen when a new government – probably a radical Islamic one – will come into power," says Open Doors USA President and CEO Dr. Carl Moeller," the report said.
"Will their freedom to worship end? Will persecution increase? Will they have to flee Syria with their families as have thousands of believers in Iraq?" the report asked, quoting Moeller.
Reports of an end to Assad's regime, however, may be premature. Janssen reports from Jordan that Assad still controls Damascus.
"Currently the situation in Damascus seems to be under the control of the Syrian army despite some fighting in certain neighborhoods," Janssen said.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
She says she believes in a literal and not an allegorical interpretation of the bible.
You still said the magic word - interpretation but let's ask....
Fash, do you believe adulterers should be killed?
When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you.
You were saying Shen....
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Real Woman"
The problem with religious texts in general a) lack of context b) issues within translation c) broad room for interpretation d) lack of application/relevance in today's day and age.
The administrator of this forum is a xtian fundy. Yet in all the years I have known her and from meeting her like-minded friends none of them talked about jihad in Jesus name.
Actually it is a problem that ignorance and intolerance breeds. The average Muslim that believes in the literal translation of the Quran probably has trouble counting to 20 without taking off their shoes. Only those at the top of the fundamentalist food chain are remotely educated. Furthermore I firmly believe that those at the top are not religious fundies but rather they are self-serving violent political radicals lusting for power and achieving it by any means possible. The religious fundamentalism that they ram down the throats of their ignorant unwashed followers is simply a means to an end.
These poor dumb slobs and worst of all the children who blow themselves up and kill hundreds of people are ignorant dupes. For the most part they live in squalor and poverty and their lives are so fucking shitty that an escape thru martyrdom is about the only ray of hope that they can grasp onto. If I lived in one of those third world Muslim hell holes I'd probably try to blow myself up and take you and whoever else with me as well.
I'm not making excuses here because in today's day and age there should be no excuse for violence in the name of religion. I'm just trying to make sense of what drives a person to such extreme violence. Is it desperation and ignorance, a wrongheaded belief in a promise of something better or is it just plain insanity?
I'm not ready to blame it solely on a single ideology or some dusty old writing in an archaic book of fables. That's only part of the problem.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you.
You were saying Shen....
Glad you mentioned those verses Real Woman. No doubt this was not the best of times for Shimei, Ishbosheth, Sheba or Ahab, but they obviously aren't around anymore to complain. Same with the tribes mentioned in the passage from Deuteronomy. This is history, of course, not some open-ended instruction like:
Quote
Do you know what bothers me in all of this? Genocide. It seems Muslims have been on the receiving end of some pretty significant attacks over the years:
US War on Terror
2003 and on - Various counts exist for civilian Muslim casualties in this war on terror ranging from 10s to 100s of thousands.
Bosnia
1995 - 8,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys, as well as the mass expulsion of another 25,000–30,000 Bosnian Muslim civilians, in and around the town of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Cambodia
1970s - The Cham Muslims suffered serious purges with as much as half of their population exterminated by communists in Cambodia.
Imperial Japan
1942 - Imperial Japanese forces slaughtered, raped, and tortured Rohingya Muslims in a massacre in 1942 and expelled tens of thousands of Rohingya into Bengal in British India. The Japanese committed countless acts of rape, murder and torture against thousands of Rohingyas.
Tatarstan
1921 - The famine deaths of 2 million Muslim Tatars in Tatar ASSR and in Volga-Ural region was catastrophic as half of Volga Tatar population in USSR died in what as known as "terror-famine" and "famine-genocide" in Tatarstan.
On and on...
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Glad you mentioned those verses Renee. No doubt this was not the best of times for Shimei, Ishbosheth, Sheba or Ahab, but they obviously aren't around anymore to complain. Same with the tribes mentioned in the passage from Deuteronomy. This is history, of course, not some open-ended instruction like:
Quote
I'm not Renee, but it sounds pretty open ended to me there Shen.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you.
You were saying Shen....
remember RW...when you are quoting the Old Testament you are talking about Jews not Christians....there were no christians during these times.......also ask yourself this...these commands are from God directly to the leaders of his chosen people (the Jews)...if they had listened to him and followed his directives, as quoted above, where do you think they would be today....certainly a hell of a lot better off than the 6 million people crammed into the current day boundaries of Israel....so perhaps the problem is not the directive but their refusal to follow it
^^Yep, ethnic cleansing along with imperialism/communism are terrible RW. The Quran is a book that commands such terrible actions.
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
remember RW...when you are quoting the Old Testament you are talking about Jews not Christians....there were no christians during these times.......also ask yourself this...these commands are from God directly to the leaders of his chosen people (the Jews)...if they had listened to him and followed his directives, as quoted above, where do you think they would be today....certainly a hell of a lot better off than the 6 million people crammed into the current day boundaries of Israel....so perhaps the problem is not the directive but their refusal to follow it
I'm talking about people who follow the bible OL and that includes modern day Christians. You hear them cite the OT all the time when it comes to hating gays or killing abortion doctors. You can't say, "That's a Jewish text so it doesn't count". If that was the case, Xtians would stick solely with the NT.
So Shen, is that why so many Muslims have been on the receiving end of religious cleansing?
Quote from: "Real Woman"
Muslims are the biggest victims of the Quran's commands of violence.
Oh I don't know about that...
Quote from: "Real Woman"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
remember RW...when you are quoting the Old Testament you are talking about Jews not Christians....there were no christians during these times.......also ask yourself this...these commands are from God directly to the leaders of his chosen people (the Jews)...if they had listened to him and followed his directives, as quoted above, where do you think they would be today....certainly a hell of a lot better off than the 6 million people crammed into the current day boundaries of Israel....so perhaps the problem is not the directive but their refusal to follow it
I'm talking about people who follow the bible OL and that includes modern day Christians. You hear them cite the OT all the time when it comes to hating gays or killing abortion doctors. You can't say, "That's a Jewish text so it doesn't count". If that was the case, Xtians would stick solely with the NT.
the rules completely changed from the old T to the new T.....the prohibitions regarding practicing gays and used to justify killing abortion doctors are consistent in both
Quote from: "Real Woman"
Fash, do you believe adulterers should be killed?
Hello Real Woman, I wish Shen Li would not use me to justify these anti Islam threads..
God often showed mercy when the death penalty was due..
David committed adultery and murder, yet God did not demand his life be taken (2 Samuel 11:1-5, 14-17; 2 Samuel 12:13)..
Ultimately, every sin we commit should result in the death penalty because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23)..
Thankfully, God demonstrates His love for us in not condemning us (Romans 5:8).
Thanks for the biblical contradictions but if one was to follow the bible to the letter, which is it? Kill em or don't because it says both.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
Don't kill them..
Whether the sin is adultery or something else, Jesus Christ has paid the price for our forgiveness by His death, burial, and resurrection..
No one has sinned too much or too long to be forgiven..
The offer of salvation is for everyone (John 3:16) who is willing to confess and repent of his or her sins and turn their lives over to the Almighty Creator, Sustainer, and Savior of the world.
So, I kill many people ... after horrendous torture of course .... like so many islamic groups do around the world dozens of time daily (to keep in thread) ..... I "see the light" and confess
Now, I can't un-torture or un-kill my victims ... so to hell with them .. to hell with their ruined families .... but I'm saved
Do I have this right?
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
Now, I can't un-tortue or un-kill ... so to hell with them .... but I'm saved
Do I have this right?
Much of the new testament was written by the apostle Paul who was a murderer.
Not an answer. Am I saved? ... even though "I can't un-torture or un-kill nor save their ruined families who suffer every single moment of every single day because of my deliberate actions?
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
Saul of Tarsus was a murderer and was saved.
Not an answer.
That's not the old biblical way of judging a person based on their
That's too
Yes, you could be considered saved if you repented.
Not an answer.
That's not the old biblical way of judging a person based on their
That's too Quote from: "Real Woman"
What if I don't want to be saved "that immoral way" ?
:)
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
That's not the old biblical way of judging a person based on their
That's too
That's why Jesus died for our sins..
He was the perfect sacrifice and shed his blood for our sins..
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
:)
I apologize cc li tarte if I seem coldhearted and uncaring..
It may be inability to share the gospel of Jesus Christ in a meaningful way.
Then don't repent ya sinner.
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
:)
Make that two of us CC.
Actually, I consider the "born again" stuff totally uncaring and immoral. I'll take the "old biblical way of judging a person based on their overall deeds" .. or at least my understanding of it
Ethics and overall morality for me is primo ... "convenience" is not
You see Fash, killers cannot un-kill nor can they un-hurt families
I would not want to reside with a god that kept company with torturers and killers who have permanently and deliberately hurt people
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
That's not the old biblical way of judging a person based on their
That's too
yes CC..if you are truly repentant, according to the bible you are saved.....but that is an over simplification of the whole biblical concept of saved and salvation.....
Fash, I can appreciate verses but I find people like the condensed version from your point of view. When you are asked a question in conversation, you generally tend not to pull out your bible and start reciting. I would consider doing the same here unless a verse is required.
My question, for example, was if you support killing adulterers which is written in the OT. Quoting me verses didnt answer my questions about YOUR beliefs. It merely answers the question of "what does the bible say" and that's not what was asked.
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
Ethics and overall morality for me is primo ... "convenience" is not
I would not want to reside with a god that kept company with torturers and killers
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
Ethics and overall morality for me is primo ... "convenience" is not
I would not want to reside with a god that kept company with torturers and killers
Then that is to say no wrong can ever be righted.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
My question, for example, was if you support killing adulterers which is written in the OT. Quoting me verses didnt answer my questions about YOUR beliefs. It merely answers the question of "what does the bible say" and that's not what was asked.
No, as a Christian I do not support killing adulterers.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
My question, for example, was if you support killing adulterers which is written in the OT. Quoting me verses didnt answer my questions about YOUR beliefs. It merely answers the question of "what does the bible say" and that's not what was asked.
both old and new testament teachings support the killing of adulterers, however a couple of things come into play here...first the concept of repentance and forgiveness and secondly the difference in how humans view their earthly existence from how God does...totally different concept.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
Ethics and overall morality for me is primo ... "convenience" is not
I would not want to reside with a god that kept company with torturers and killers
Then that is to say no wrong can ever be righted.
That's what I'm saying actually. The wrong committed upon the person murdered cannot be righted nor can the wrong done to the families ever be righted
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Does the new one actually say that? I doubt JC himself said ANYTHING like that ... but Wow!! I had no idea such crap existed in the new one.
So, looks to me like one must be a "cafeteria" follower ... pick what one likes and leave behind what one does not like .... like the convenient "being saved" *rolleyes* no matter what one does. Damn!!
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Real Woman"
My question, for example, was if you support killing adulterers which is written in the OT. Quoting me verses didnt answer my questions about YOUR beliefs. It merely answers the question of "what does the bible say" and that's not what was asked.
both old and new testament teachings support the killing of adulterers, however a couple of things come into play here...first the concept of repentance and forgiveness and secondly the difference in how humans view their earthly existence from how God does...totally different concept.
There are several instances in the gospels about the things that constitute adultery.
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
Quote from: "Real Woman"
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
Ethics and overall morality for me is primo ... "convenience" is not
I would not want to reside with a god that kept company with torturers and killers
Then that is to say no wrong can ever be righted.
That's what I'm saying actually. The wrong committed upon the person murdered cannot be righted nor can the wrong done to the families ever be righted
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Does the new one actually say that? Wow!!
it does not actually say that "adulterers shall be put to death" however you can follow a path of NT scriptures that will get you there.....not to quote scriptures directly but
1.adultery is one of a number of sins listed as "abominations" which are deserving of the death penalty...some others being homosexuality, drunkedness etc etc.....
2.the NT also teaches that if you are guilty of one sin then you are guilty of all sins therefore by inference if you are guilty of adultery you are equally guilty of murder, lying stealing etc etc.
3. the NT also teaches that God commands us to follow whatever the government tell us to do so therefore extrapolating from #2 if the govt. says there is a death penalty for murder then we must accept this and again extrapolating from #2 that would mean the death penalty for all other sins including adultery...
however remember all you have to do is repent (or pay cash) and you can start over, at least that is what the catholics believe
a "convenience" store, eh?
Well, I'm still banking on the old way based on a person's overall humanity
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
Quote from: "Real Woman"
Then that is to say no wrong can ever be righted.
That's what I'm saying actually. The wrong committed upon the person murdered cannot be righted nor can the wrong done to the families ever be righted
Quote
Does the new one actually say that? Wow!!
it does not actually say that "adulterers shall be put to death" however you can follow a path of NT scriptures that will get you there.....not to quote scriptures directly but
1.adultery is one of a number of sins listed as "abominations" which are deserving of the death penalty...some others being homosexuality, drunkedness etc etc.....
2.the NT also teaches that if you are guilty of one sin then you are guilty of all sins therefore by inference if you are guilty of adultery you are equally guilty of murder, lying stealing etc etc.
3. the NT also teaches that God commands us to follow whatever the government tell us to do so therefore extrapolating from #2 if the govt. says there is a death penalty for murder then we must accept this and again extrapolating from #2 that would mean the death penalty for all other sins including adultery...
however remember all you have to do is repent (or pay cash) and you can start over, at least that is what the catholics believe
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren. 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God....
of course i am being more than a little facetious.....i do this to point out the following.....
1. it is impossible for a believer and a non believer to have the same understanding of what the bible teaches.
2. it is impossible to rationally discuss the bible with someone who has not read it and studied it thoroughly...it is simply not possible
3. until you understand the difference between the spiritual life and the human life as pertains to a relationship with God non of it means anything
so the unbeliever suffers none of the constraints a believer feels regarding certain moral issues...on the other hand a true believer is obligated by their belief to hold and act on certain views
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
Well, I'm still banking on the old way based on a person's overall humanity
sorry CC.....that's not on.........being a good person of itself won't do it.....like i said maybe the best thing is just become a catholic and then you can buy salvation or have the priest grant it...easy peasy
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
1. it is impossible for a believer and a non believer to have the same understanding of what the bible teaches.
2. it is impossible to rationally discuss the bible with someone who has not read it and studied it thoroughly...it is simply not possible
3. until you understand the difference between the spiritual life and the human life as pertains to a relationship with God non of it means anything
so the unbeliever suffers none of the constraints a believer feels regarding certain moral issues...on the other hand a true believer is obligated by their belief to hold and act on certain views
Yes, this is true Obvious Li..
When you receive Jesus as your personal Lord and saviour, the holy spirit dwells within and it is only then that we have a clearer understanding of God's design for us.
So, 6 billion who never heard of it are screwed. All the truly good people are screwed unless they luck in and know about it.
Murderers and torturers who confess are good to go. Those innocents who suffered and / or died by their hand + their innocent families who suffer at their hands are not.
No!! I cannot.
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
Murderers and torturers who confess are good to go. Families who suffer at their hands are not.
No!! I cannot.
Our God is an awesome God, and nothing will stop him from getting the good news to even the most remote parts of the world, "to the ends of the earth" (Acts 1:8)..
And as if to prove it, God even gave John a glimpse of heaven, where he saw people "from every tribe and language and people from every nation" (Revelation 5:9).
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Not so. Most of the world have never heard of it and NEVER will.
Further, anyone would be killed if they lived in most islamic lands and even thought about it.
That is just words ... and not valid.
100s of Xians (along with other non islamics) are dying at the hands of islamics every day.
It's too easy to dream and say any words from the safety of Canada. Truth is that most people in the world do not have that luxury .. and NEVER will
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
Anyone would be killed if they lived in most islamic lands and even thought about it. Not so.
100s of Xians (along with other non islamics) are dying at the hands of islamics every day.
It's too easy to dream and speak optimistically from the safety of Canada. Truth is that most people in the world do not have that luxury .. and NEVER will
God's creation is all around us..
The Bible says that no one is ignorant when it comes to God. (Romans 1:19-21)..
Neither of those quotes mention "believing"
That "salvation" thing from knowing Christ if it existed would be allowed for only a tiny part of the world. Such an exclusive hateful god is not a god I could follow.
Fortunately, the god I love is not like that at all. He allows everyone a chance to show what they are throughout their life .... even if they never heard of him or cared for him. He is a kind and loving and all-inclusive god. I bet he will even take sworn islamics so long as they were good people. That is what those 2 quotes imply btw. But he doesn't take to people who deliberately hurt others no matter how hard they claim to be sorry.
My god is more like those 2 quotations in fact .. so which is it? .... knowing Christ? or just being a decent person?
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
That "salvation" thing from knowing Christ if it existed would be allowed for only a tiny part of the world. Such an exclusive hateful god is not a god I could follow.
However, the god I love is not like that. He allows everyone a chance to show what they are throughout their life .... even if they never heard of him or cared for him. He is a kind and loving and all-inclusive god. I bet he would even take an islamic so long as he was a good person
My god is more like those 2 quotations in fact .. so which is it? .... knowing Christ? or just being a decent person?
Works alone will not save you..
If it did then our Lord Jesus ultimate sacrifice was for nothing.
Repentance and belief are how one is saved.
For just a moment there, I thought your god was a good god like mine is and was a kind and loving and all-inclusive god.
OK, so we are right back to "Most of the world have never heard of it and NEVER will" .. so they are left out. We are right back to that cruel
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
OK, so we are right back to "Most of the world have never heard of it and NEVER will" .. so they are left out. We are right back to that cruel
The bible is not absolutely crystal clear about what happens to those who never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ..
It is though for people who have heard and rejected it..
Christ commanded us to preach so that everyone would here the gospel..
For those who die unreached, that is God's department, not ours..
We simply labor and strive to make that group as small as possible..
But, scripture suggests that infants and little children who die can go to Heaven (2 Samuel 12:23; Luke 18:16), even though they never put their faith in Christ or believed the Gospel while on earth..
So those with the understanding of little children have hope of Heaven through Christ, while adults who reject the truth they have do not.
Frankly, I would not want to be with "confessed" killers ... I'll take my chances on my loving, kind and "inclusive" god who likes me (and everyone in the world) for the persons we are ... and understands that many people cannot buy into what is in a book, be it bible, koran or whatever ..... all of them containing promises of salvation for a select few who kiss up to it and are also contain GREAT exclusion toward those who cannot buy into it for a multitude of reasons .
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
God is inclusive and all tribes will be present in his kingdom..
He does you love you and everyone else, but we have all sinned and that is what separates us from our God..
There is nothing people can do save themselves, only our Lord Jesus can do that.
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
... There is
That's terrible. I don't want to know such a horrible monster "
While I have not read much of the bibles, I have read all of islam's books. That god you describe sounds somewhat like that cruel & highly "exclusive" allah (satan's spawn).
My god is kind, understanding and "inclusive" .... and likes us ONLY for "what we are".
I really do like him and the immeasurable comfort and kindness he displays and gives me. I wish those who believe in all those cruel "exclusive" gods could know my kind and all-inclusive god who likes every one of us souls in the entire world for what we are
He is so understanding that he even likes Shen!
What God is this cc? One free of religion?
Quote from: "Real Woman"
yes i am curious too...however the christian bible is very clear.....ONLY believers will enter the kingdom of heaven.....all others will be cast into the pit (hell)...so i imagine (and the bible states) the numbers to be quite small.....the jehovah witnesses teach the number to be only 144,000 souls....the mormons say only mormons will make it......one of the signs of the end of times for humanity is the teaching of the gospel to "the ends of the earth"...which we are pretty much at now...so get ready for the apocalypse any day...or so they say
it is generally accepted that the destruction of the dome of the rock in jerusalem is another sign so you should watch that as well..... cheery thoughts
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
... There is
That's terrible. I don't want to know such a horrible monster "
While I have not read much of the bibles, I have read all of islam's books. That god you describe sounds somewhat like that cruel & highly "exclusive" allah (satan's spawn).
I really do like him and the immeasurable comfort and kindness he displays and gives me. I wish those who believe in all those cruel "exclusive" gods could know my kind and all-inclusive god who likes every one of us souls in the entire world for what we are
He is so understanding that he even likes Shen!
[/b]
i know just the church for you,it is called the United Church of Canada...it accepts any and all..you don't need faith or any particular beliefs and you can do anything you want...and yes of course god like SY.....whats not to like
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
Quote from: "Fashionista"
... There is
That's terrible. I don't want to know such a horrible monster "
While I have not read much of the bibles, I have read all of islam's books. That god you describe sounds somewhat like that cruel & highly "exclusive" allah (satan's spawn).
I really do like him and the immeasurable comfort and kindness he displays and gives me. I wish those who believe in all those cruel "exclusive" gods could know my kind and all-inclusive god who likes every one of us souls in the entire world for what we are
He is so understanding that he even likes Shen!
[/b]
i know just the church for you,it is called the United Church of Canada...it accepts any and all..you don't need faith or any particular beliefs and you can do anything you want...and yes of course god like SY.....whats not to like
I know there are people that want God to conform to them rather than repent and submit to His holiness..
There are false teachers and churches that tell their congregations that this is possible too..
This gross betrayal of Jesus Christ is heresy.
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
... There is
That's terrible. I don't want to know such a horrible monster "
While I have not read much of the bibles, I have read all of islam's books. That god you describe sounds somewhat like that cruel & highly "exclusive" allah (satan's spawn).
My god is kind, understanding and "inclusive" .... and likes us ONLY for "what we are".
I really do like him and the immeasurable comfort and kindness he displays and gives me. I wish those who believe in all those cruel "exclusive" gods could know my kind and all-inclusive god who likes every one of us souls in the entire world for what we are
He must have low fucking standards!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Not really.^
Quote from: "Real Woman"
As I would define "religions" as "made up (that's an especially appropriate accidental phrase ;) ) of the words of mere mortals ... and agenda-driven mortals yet" ... and
Throughout the entire world man-made religions direct people away from "knowing" what they cameinto the world knowing. Well, OK. I'm speaking for myself. Maybe some don't know how to access what they were born knowing ... or worse, maybe there are some others that aren't born with anything other than their physical being .. a very sad thought for me.
I can't speak for others. I can only speak for myself and a small few others who I know directly were born with a knowing and forever part of themselves .. some would call it a soul (and more importantly are able to access that part of themselves) ... and know what is and also know what is not ... and of course know and understand the
CC, I kinda know where you are coming from. Personally, I'm an atheist and I think all religions are fairy tales and superstition. I have learned over the years that there are two things that are pointless to discuss with Fash; one is Taiwan's status and the second is religion. She may bend a little on the former, but no chance on the latter.
Ya, well I'm just speaking of what I have always known .... merely putting it out there with no expectations that others who are not "there" could understand
I can only know what [size=150]I [/size]know and live accordingly. Others must find what is already within themselves on their own
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
I can only know what [size=150]I [/size]know and live accordingly. Others must find what is already within themselves on their own
Point taken CC. I just hate arguing with religious zealots. I'd rather rub black pepper in my eyelids...it's less irritating!!
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
I can only know what [size=150]I [/size]know and live accordingly. Others must find what is already within themselves on their own
Point taken CC. ....
I'd rather rub black pepper in my eyelids
Just be careful the pepper does not collect in the narrow corners
:D
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
Quote from: "Fashionista"
... There is
That's terrible. I don't want to know such a horrible monster "
While I have not read much of the bibles, I have read all of islam's books. That god you describe sounds somewhat like that cruel & highly "exclusive" allah (satan's spawn).
I really do like him and the immeasurable comfort and kindness he displays and gives me. I wish those who believe in all those cruel "exclusive" gods could know my kind and all-inclusive god who likes every one of us souls in the entire world for what we are
He is so understanding that he even likes Shen!
[/b]
i know just the church for you,it is called the United Church of Canada...it accepts any and all..you don't need faith or any particular beliefs and you can do anything you want...and yes of course god like SY.....whats not to like
No rules, believe what you want, abuse your body indulgences and still see the pearly gates when you die? That's the church for me.
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
I can only know what [size=150]I [/size]know and live accordingly. Others must find what is already within themselves on their own
Point taken CC. I just hate arguing with religious zealots. I'd rather rub black pepper in my eyelids...it's less irritating!!
I am not a religious zealot Shen Li..
Religion is man made, I have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
I guess I just bypass the middle man
That said, from what I read of him he sounds like a pretty neat guy
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
That said, from what I read of him he sounds like a pretty neat guy
I'd party with anyone that can turn water into expensive wine. :lol:
Oh cc, how I've missed your whacky worded answers. *warm fuzzies*
I know it's all made up. I just wondered if you followed your own made up version or a version that is widely accepted by others.
It sounds like you are in a similar spiritual boat to me. I can't handle religion. The Bible is an EPIC, best selling work of short fiction stories. Then again, I never know with you :)
Munday - wrong about Mormons. Just sayin'
Quote from: "Real Woman"
I know it's all made up. I just wondered if you followed your own made up version or a version that is widely accepted by others.
It sounds like you are in a similar spiritual boat to me. I can't handle religion. The Bible is an EPIC, best selling work of short fiction stories. Then again, I never know with you :)
Munday - wrong about Mormons. Just sayin'
What about the Mormons other than their sacred drawers?
Condensed version is that they have two hells - the Spirit prison where bad people go and the real baddies, the really evil ones go to Outter Darkness. If you are super awesome, you get to be a God of your own planet. If you just a good human, you go to the Celestial Kingdom aka Heaven. If you are an okay human or non Mormon you go to the Spirit World where you learn how to be better and progress your way to Heaven. If you are non-Mormon, you have to be baptized to go to heaven so they do baptisms of the dead.
I should say that Mu day was only wrong in the sense that you can be baptized after the fact and get into Heaven ergo you don't have to be a Mormon in life to get into Heaven.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
No offense RW, but when it comes religulousness, all I read is blah, blah, blah. Sorry, I asked.
LOL!
I'm kinda sorry I know this crap.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
I'm kinda sorry I know this crap.
No worries, I'm sure there are people who are fascinated by religion, but I would rather watch snow melt.
I used to be. I have a respect for other religions while thinking they are all kind of whacked. That said, religions have some very good people who subscribe to them and I can't find fault in those who use religion as a means to do wonderful things and be wonderful people.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
Yep, there is one very kind-hearted religious person at the admin controls here. If some of those zealots were more like her, I would be less offended by religion in general
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Real Woman"
Yep, there is one very kind-hearted religious person at the admin controls here. If some of those zealots were more like her, I would be less offended by religion in general
Thank you, I am flattered, but I am not confident enough to be a role model for Christianity.
You are one if the better ones I've come across Fash :)
Quote from: "Real Woman"
Yeah, I would agree with that. With the exception of a couple of Mormons I know, Fash is the only other tolerable religious person I know.
i have mixed feelings about it all....having studied the bible exhaustively for 40 years i think i have a basic grasp of what it means and how it relates to the human condition......i admire people like fash who unabashedly believe and are unafraid to proclaim their faith......as for me on the other hand having led a life of sinful, backsliding debauchery and making a habit of breaking as many commandments as possible each and every day......the struggle is uphill to say the least...i keep hoping i will have enough time to make a death bed confession and clear the slate but as we know from reading the bible that only happened to one person there so the odds are not good............. :ugeek:
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
I'm glad I never had that religious baggage thrust upon me as a kid. You could burn in hell for eternity seems like a terrible thing to tell a kid. Kids have enough stress nowadays, they don't need this additional silly burden.
I suppose you could say I was born a Buddhist, but my parents are agnostics, while I lean towards atheism. Everyone is free to drink the blood of Christ, but just don't splash any on me.
I'm a recovering Catholic :)
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
I'm glad I never had that religious baggage thrust upon me as a kid. You could burn in hell for eternity seems like a terrible thing to tell a kid. Kids have enough stress nowadays, they don't need this additional silly burden.
I suppose you could say I was born a Buddhist, but my parents are agnostics, while I lean towards atheism. Everyone is free to drink the blood of Christ, but just don't splash any on me.
So you have studied all the religions and then came to the conclusion that atheism is the way to go....... or the more likely scenario is that you never bothered studying any religion, and unthinkingly and unquestioningly followed what our education system tells us to believe which is atheism so that you wouldn't make any waves. .....and that is just dumb. :o
Quote from: "Gary Oak"
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
I'm glad I never had that religious baggage thrust upon me as a kid. You could burn in hell for eternity seems like a terrible thing to tell a kid. Kids have enough stress nowadays, they don't need this additional silly burden.
I suppose you could say I was born a Buddhist, but my parents are agnostics, while I lean towards atheism. Everyone is free to drink the blood of Christ, but just don't splash any on me.
So you have studied all the religions and then came to the conclusion that atheism is the way to go....... or the more likely scenario is that you never bothered studying any religion, and unthinkingly and unquestioningly followed what our education system tells us to believe which is atheism so that you wouldn't make any waves. .....and that is just dumb. :o
Oak, go fuck urself!!
Quote from: "Gary Oak"
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
I'm glad I never had that religious baggage thrust upon me as a kid. You could burn in hell for eternity seems like a terrible thing to tell a kid. Kids have enough stress nowadays, they don't need this additional silly burden.
I suppose you could say I was born a Buddhist, but my parents are agnostics, while I lean towards atheism. Everyone is free to drink the blood of Christ, but just don't splash any on me.
So you have studied all the religions and then came to the conclusion that atheism is the way to go....... or the more likely scenario is that you never bothered studying any religion, and unthinkingly and unquestioningly followed what our education system tells us to believe which is atheism so that you wouldn't make any waves. .....and that is just dumb. :o
Oak, go fuck urself!!
The truth hurts :D
The truth is people tend to follow the lead of their parents moreso than the education system.
I would also say that there would be no point in studying religions if you don't believe there is a God or Gods in the first place.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
I would also say that there would be no point in studying religions if you don't believe there is a God or Gods in the first place.
agreed ......religion by it's definition requires faith in the written word....if you don't have that then it is just a fairy tale......believers do not have any choice either you believe it all or none of it is relevant.
Disagree. To learn what drives others and thus to have an understanding of what to expect from them in all areas of life is a valuable tool in many aspects of life. For those who are in positions of leadership and responsibility or political positions it is essential.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
I would also say that
[size=200]BULLSEYE!![/size]
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
I know religion is what defines a lot of people CC, but I am just not interested in the subject. I don't believe in dieties.
Of course they are mainly fairy tales made up by mere mortals, but that is not the point.
As you said "religion is what defines a lot of people". That is why it is valuable to know
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
As you said "religion is what defines a lot of people". That is why it is valuable to know
I admit you got a point, but it is all such bullshit. To me, why not believe in the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy? It makes as much sense as what's in the bible/Quran.
Again, I am not suggesting believing them. I'm only suggesting that knowing "what drives people" can be a valuable tool in life.
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
I would rather un-brainwash them.
Good luck with that
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
True enough!!
CC, Shen, Have either of you seen a show on HBO called VISE? I just finished watching season 1 & 2 (10 episodes each) and they have alot of journalism on the Taliban,Muslims,child suicide bombings,child slavery etc... Very informative, really brought a perspective to stuff i never knew. I haven't searched Google for the show or you-tube but it might be there.
Quote from: "Keeper"
I haven't heard of it Keeper, but hey thanks for telling us. I'll take a look for it later today.
While we are on the subject of faith, I am in the same boat as Obvious Li. I have been around people of faith all my life. Problem with me is like my fun. Drinking, girls, aint giving up either. I'm hoping to make deathbed conversion. Until that time, I will continue to do what makes me happy.
Quote from: "seoulbro"
Quote from: "Keeper"
I haven't heard of it Keeper, but hey thanks for telling us. I'll take a look for it later today.
While we are on the subject of faith, I am in the same boat as Obvious Li. I have been around people of faith all my life. Problem with me is like my fun. Drinking, girls, aint giving up either. I'm hoping to make deathbed conversion. Until that time, I will continue to do what makes me happy.
I feel what you are saying is that you Christianity is too restrict.ng..
But, I feel I have freedom in Christ
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Freedom and religion, that's an oxymoron. :x
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Fashionista"
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i would rather say that fun and religion is an oxymoron to today's fundies.......no where in the bible does it say believers can't have fun.....but today's fundys have completely fucked up what being a believer means....so i march to my own drummer.......i accept the consequences
CC i take exception to your points about trying to studying to figure out where the various side comes from....you cannot ever know where they come from unless you are a true believer...critically analyzing it from a detached perspective just doesn't do it.....again i go back to my statement about certain moral stands christians take regarding such things as abortion or homosexuality.....if you are a true believer you have no choice in where you stand.......that option is not available........neither is there some loosey goosey interpretation of the bible....it just doesn't work that way...which is why we have dozens of christian denominations......each one salves a different conscience.....but the word is the word and it doesn't change with some misguided interpretation.
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Fashionista"
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CC i take exception to your points about trying to studying to figure out where the various side comes from....you cannot ever know where they come from unless you are a true believer...critically analyzing it from a detached perspective just doesn't do it.....again i go back to my statement about certain moral stands christians take regarding such things as abortion or homosexuality.....if you are a true believer you have no choice in where you stand.......that option is not available........neither is there some loosey goosey interpretation of the bible....it just doesn't work that way...which is why we have dozens of christian denominations......each one salves a different conscience.....but the word is the word and it doesn't change with some misguided interpretation.
Fun and freedom go hand in glove for many of us handsome. Nuff said!!
Quote from: "cc li tarte"
As you said "religion is what defines a lot of people". That is why it is valuable to know
From a psychological or sociological or even historical perspective, I agree with you but in the context of belief or non-belief, I don't.
Munday, I'm going to disagree with you on the changing of the words in the Bible. It's translated. That changes it right there. It is also extremely contextually detached from the time in which it was written. If you consider our slang, idioms, allusions, etc that we have in current speech and try to translate cross culture, never mind thousands of years, they lose their meaning.
I think this is a major issue with those who hang on biblical wording. It should be the big messages, not word for word that should be clung to.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
I think this is a major issue with those who hang on biblical wording. It should be the big messages, not word for word that should be clung to.
most people that don't understand the bible well would agree with you.....however the bible very clearly points out that it is the "inspired" word of god "breathed" directly to it's authors from God.......implanted in their minds and shown to them through visions......it further states clearly in the bible that not one dot, comma, tittle etc. can be changed....such change will bring damnation to the changer......it is not open to interpretation or modernization or contextually changing with the times....
having said that there any many many versions of the bible around.....all translations from the original Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew.....for example between the publishing of the King James version in the 1600's and the newer NIV translation in the 20th. century many new documents were discovered and the wording translations do vary....so which is right....i don't know except to say that in all translations ALL the pertinent concepts and commands never vary. All modern discoveries of ancient biblical texts including the dead sea scrolls confirm what is written in the first biblical Pentateuch translations...there have been no significant contradictions....... :ugeek:
Yes I'm well aware of what they say about the inspiration of the translations. I'm glad you picked up the versions. No matter how you cut it, translation isn't perfect.
Either way, what do you do with time and culture context?
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Real Woman"
I think this is a major issue with those who hang on biblical wording. It should be the big messages, not word for word that should be clung to.
most people that don't understand the bible well would agree with you.....however the bible very clearly points out that it is the "inspired" word of god "breathed" directly to it's authors from God.......implanted in their minds and shown to them through visions......it further states clearly in the bible that not one dot, comma, tittle etc. can be changed....such change will bring damnation to the changer......it is not open to interpretation or modernization or contextually changing with the times....
having said that there any many many versions of the bible around.....all translations from the original Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew.....for example between the publishing of the King James version in the 1600's and the newer NIV translation in the 20th. century many new documents were discovered and the wording translations do vary....so which is right....i don't know except to say that in all translations ALL the pertinent concepts and commands never vary. All modern discoveries of ancient biblical texts including the dead sea scrolls confirm what is written in the first biblical Pentateuch translations...there have been no significant contradictions....... :ugeek:
You, Fash and RW have ruined a perfectly good trash Islam thread. :x :x :x
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Real Woman"
I think this is a major issue with those who hang on biblical wording. It should be the big messages, not word for word that should be clung to.
most people that don't understand the bible well would agree with you.....however the bible very clearly points out that it is the "inspired" word of god "breathed" directly to it's authors from God.......implanted in their minds and shown to them through visions......it further states clearly in the bible that not one dot, comma, tittle etc. can be changed....such change will bring damnation to the changer......it is not open to interpretation or modernization or contextually changing with the times....
having said that there any many many versions of the bible around.....all translations from the original Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew.....for example between the publishing of the King James version in the 1600's and the newer NIV translation in the 20th. century many new documents were discovered and the wording translations do vary....so which is right....i don't know except to say that in all translations ALL the pertinent concepts and commands never vary. All modern discoveries of ancient biblical texts including the dead sea scrolls confirm what is written in the first biblical Pentateuch translations...there have been no significant contradictions....... :ugeek:
You, Fash and RW have ruined a perfectly good trash Islam thread. :x :x :x
ok princess.....islam is bad.....they are all terrorists.....i hate rag heads....lets kill all those evil motherfuckers....AND rape their women........bastards
Quote from: "Real Woman"
[/b]
it has no bearing on anything.....time and culture started changing the day after it was written...doesn't alter the basic tenants of the gospel or the application of the law.
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
most people that don't understand the bible well would agree with you.....however the bible very clearly points out that it is the "inspired" word of god "breathed" directly to it's authors from God.......implanted in their minds and shown to them through visions......it further states clearly in the bible that not one dot, comma, tittle etc. can be changed....such change will bring damnation to the changer......it is not open to interpretation or modernization or contextually changing with the times....
having said that there any many many versions of the bible around.....all translations from the original Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew.....for example between the publishing of the King James version in the 1600's and the newer NIV translation in the 20th. century many new documents were discovered and the wording translations do vary....so which is right....i don't know except to say that in all translations ALL the pertinent concepts and commands never vary. All modern discoveries of ancient biblical texts including the dead sea scrolls confirm what is written in the first biblical Pentateuch translations...there have been no significant contradictions....... :ugeek:
You, Fash and RW have ruined a perfectly good trash Islam thread. :x :x :x
ok princess.....islam is bad.....they are all terrorists.....i hate rag heads....lets kill all those evil motherfuckers....AND rape their women........bastards
That's more like it. ;)
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
most people that don't understand the bible well would agree with you.....however the bible very clearly points out that it is the "inspired" word of god "breathed" directly to it's authors from God.......implanted in their minds and shown to them through visions......it further states clearly in the bible that not one dot, comma, tittle etc. can be changed....such change will bring damnation to the changer......it is not open to interpretation or modernization or contextually changing with the times....
having said that there any many many versions of the bible around.....all translations from the original Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew.....for example between the publishing of the King James version in the 1600's and the newer NIV translation in the 20th. century many new documents were discovered and the wording translations do vary....so which is right....i don't know except to say that in all translations ALL the pertinent concepts and commands never vary. All modern discoveries of ancient biblical texts including the dead sea scrolls confirm what is written in the first biblical Pentateuch translations...there have been no significant contradictions....... :ugeek:
You, Fash and RW have ruined a perfectly good trash Islam thread. :x :x :x
ok princess.....islam is bad.....they are all terrorists.....i hate rag heads....lets kill all those evil motherfuckers....AND rape their women........bastards
Im Free anytime after 5pm Sunday, that good for you?
Quote from: "Keeper"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Shen Li"
You, Fash and RW have ruined a perfectly good trash Islam thread. :x :x :x
ok princess.....islam is bad.....they are all terrorists.....i hate rag heads....lets kill all those evil motherfuckers....AND rape their women........bastards
Im Free anytime after 5pm Sunday, that good for you?
I'll check my schedule and get back to ya. ;)
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Keeper"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
ok princess.....islam is bad.....they are all terrorists.....i hate rag heads....lets kill all those evil motherfuckers....AND rape their women........bastards
Im Free anytime after 5pm Sunday, that good for you?
I'll check my schedule and get back to ya. ;)
Try and make it please!!
Wouldn't be the same without you, And if you don't come, Who cooking us dinner? and bringing us beers. :lol:
Quote from: "Keeper"
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Keeper"
Im Free anytime after 5pm Sunday, that good for you?
I'll check my schedule and get back to ya. ;)
Try and make it please!!
Wouldn't be the same without you, And if you don't come, Who cooking us dinner? and bringing us beers. :lol:
What to serve at a good old fashioned Koran burning? Porkboarding perhaps. ;)
Is that like PULLED Pork? Yumm, My mouth is waterin, Pass the salt&pepper
Quote from: "Keeper"
It's CC's specialty, so she'd be the one to ask?
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Real Woman"
[/b]
it has no bearing on anything.....time and culture started changing the day after it was written...doesn't alter the basic tenants of the gospel or the application of the law.
Like I said, hang on to the big picture and don't get caught up in the words.
Quote from: "Real Woman"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Real Woman"
[/b]
it has no bearing on anything.....time and culture started changing the day after it was written...doesn't alter the basic tenants of the gospel or the application of the law.
Like I said, hang on to the big picture and don't get caught up in the words.
backwards.........what allows you lefty`s to sleep at night..... :geek:
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
The reassurance that Islam is a religion of peace. :lol:
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
[/b]
you left out tolerance......have a GREAT easter weekend...and remember it's NOT about the easter bunny.... :ugeek:
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
[/b]
you left out tolerance......have a GREAT easter weekend...and remember it's NOT about the easter bunny.... :ugeek:
I have a pet bunny by the way.