All this means is big oil will have to pay more cash to the reserve. That money will then be squandered by the chief on new Cadillacs and booze. Some money will go to new F-150's and booze and then a chunk will go to a new pow wow centre for preserving their way of life but all the fixtures will be stolen out of it within two years and no one will use it so kids will smash the windows until someone burns it down. Then the tribe will bitch that they were unfairly treated by big oil and the white man and they need to put a stop to the next industrial development to save their land and protect their way of life. 8-) :x :lol:
http://ca.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idCAKBN0F11KV20140626
Quote from: "Gary Oak"
http://ca.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idCAKBN0F11KV20140626
yep ....that pretty much sums it up....you forgot the part where we will have to increase funding to cover more substance abuse, medical etc.....same shit different pile.....when oh when will people finally wake up and say...ENOUGH OF THIS FUCKING INSANITY
Quote
Can't develop resources on First Nation territory without permission and compensation.
First Nations want these land claims settled. Government needs to stop dragging its feet and trying to nickel n' dime First Nations. Too much money has been spent foot dragging and too much lost due to economic uncertainty.
will someone please intelligently answer this question......If BC natives say they never signed a treaty with canada, (insist on it to the point of going to court, receive a court decision siding with their claim)....WHY OH WHY ARE WE PAYING MONEY TO KEEP THESE PEOPLE ALIVE AND SUPPORT THEIR BAD HABITS IF THEY ARE NOT A PART OF THIS COUNTRY. WTF is up with that.........Hmmmmmmm............... :ugeek:
First Nations have signed many treaties, many of which have been constantly broken. But most land claims haven't been settled because our governments have been holding off and trying to give them as little of their territory as possible.
Homy...i said intelligently answer the question.....you posted bafflegab unrelated to the issue at hand.....why are we paying money to support people who openly admit they are not canadian and don't wish to be canadian.....why ????...we are not using their lands or resources in most cases...so why are we paying ?????
Not many First Nations believe they're not Canadian, but they do want to retain their own nation, territory and culture. None of us would want to just give up our nationality, territory and culture.
We've been taking and using their land and resources for hundreds of years. The pittance we've given them is nothing compared to what we've taken.
Quote from: "Romero"
We've been taking and using their land and resources for hundreds of years. The pittance we've given them is nothing compared to what we've taken.
ok that is a valid opinion....i'm not buying it but some folks would agree with you....if these tribes have remained sovereign territories all these years why are we paying them cash...why not give it to ukraine or some third world shithole in africa or better yet not spend it at all...... :ugeek:
The British North America Act in 1867 gave all jurisdiction of Indian land to the federal government. Natives would be stuck onto reserves and the government would look after their basic needs such as housing, education, health care and infrastructure. Unfortunately we've been giving them the very minimum for what we got.
Reserves aren't the only communities receiving federal funding. The government funds all municipalities and provinces across the country.
Quote
Providing a comparable range and level of service to First Nations and Inuit is a stated government goal, but according to Canada's auditor general, "Services available on reserves are often not comparable to those provided off reserves by provinces and municipalities," and conditions have remained poor.
In the 2011 report
The federal government established each First Nation band as an autonomous entity and, therefore, provides separate program funding to each one. With about 630 First Nations – 60 per cent of which have fewer than 500 residents – economies of scale mean that delivering these programs likely will be expensive, compared to when similar services are provided at the municipal and provincial level.
//http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/how-does-native-funding-work-1.1301120
Quote from: "Romero"
Reserves aren't the only communities receiving federal funding. The government funds all municipalities and provinces across the country.
nice try Homy.....the feds fund various levels of govt. from tax revenues raised by citizens in the various jurisdictions...they act as the tax collector for all levels of govt. and distribute the funds according to certain formulas.....natives are considered wards of the crown and pay no taxes..they get money simply for being indian....your example may have applied when the federal govt. did consider them wards of the crown....but now the court has ruled they are sovereign nations living in sovereign territory...so my question remains...why are the taxpayers of canada funding citizens of a foreign country...seems to me it needs to stop.
Quote from: "Romero"
Quote
Can't develop resources on First Nation territory without permission and compensation.
First Nations want these land claims settled. Government needs to stop dragging its feet and trying to nickel n' dime First Nations. Too much money has been spent foot dragging and too much lost due to economic uncertainty.
You never could cut down a single fucking tree on reserves without greasing band councils hands. Nothing new there.
OL is right, it's time Canadians say enough is enough and stop this two-tiered citizenship. Giving privileges based on race/ethnicity is soooooo19th century.
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
It gets fucking worse.....that anti-Canadian slimebucket Thomas Mulcair has said that if he is elected PM all negotiations with reserves will be on a special state to state basis!! When Harper negotiates with Obongo or the EU assholes he has to put the interests of his country first. Would Mulcair always seek the best deal for Canadians or would he seek the best deal for the state(Aboriginals) that he does not represent?
Let's face facts, Aboriginals are neither de facto nor de jure countries and never were. We are getting into dangerous Balkanization territory here. Either they are Canadians or they are completely separate nations that get no help from Canadian taxpayers. They can't have their cake and eat it too.
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Some First Nations are exempt from some taxes, but they still pay taxes.
^^They are exempt from paying income tax on monies earned on the reserve. They are also GST exempt. Benefits based on ethnicity in the year 2014.....UNFUCKING BELIEVABLE!!! :x :x :x
We have to give them something for taking most of their land.
Benefits based on ethnicity? We stuck them onto reserves and forced them into residential schools based on their ethnicity.
Quote from: "Romero"
Benefits based on ethnicity? We stuck them onto reserves and forced them into residential schools based on their ethnicity.
I never took anything from anyone and I should not have to pay money in taxes for benefits that I am not entitled to simply because I am the wrong ethnicity. I never put anyone in a residential school(though if someone was abused in those religious schools they should be entitled to restitution).
Shit happened to people of my ethnicity too ya know. I shouldn't be entitled to benefits just because your great grandpa did shit to my great grandpa. That's insane!!
You're currently living and working on former native territory. The deal was we would take it in exchange for supposing to take care of their basic needs.
It's not like they prefer to live on little reserves getting little recognition and care. They're the ones getting the real short end of the stick.
Uh oh!
Quote
Vancouver city council has unanimously voted to acknowledge that the city is on unceded Aboriginal territory.
Mayor Gregor Robertson declared a 'Year of Reconciliation' last summer, in the hopes of building new relationships between Aboriginals and Vancouverites.
"Underlying all other truths spoken during the Year of Reconciliation is the truth that the modern city of Vancouver was founded on the traditional territories of the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh First Nations and that these territories were never ceded through treaty, war or surrender," reads part of the motion from the city.
The city says it will now work with representatives from the Aboriginal community to determine "appropriate protocols" for conducting city business.
//http://globalnews.ca/news/1416321/city-of-vancouver-formally-declares-city-is-on-unceded-aborginal-territory/
I've actually accepted this decades ago. I live near the village site of X̱wáýx̱way in Stanley Park, where Captain George Vancouver was the first European to meet the indigenous people of this region.
Quote from: "Romero"
Benefits based on ethnicity? We stuck them onto reserves and forced them into residential schools based on their ethnicity.
wonder if we just told the EU to redraw the maps for europe back to 1492..i think even those anal fucktards would get some balls and say fuck off......
Quote from: "Romero"
Quote
Vancouver city council has unanimously voted to acknowledge that the city is on unceded Aboriginal territory.
Mayor Gregor Robertson declared a 'Year of Reconciliation' last summer, in the hopes of building new relationships between Aboriginals and Vancouverites.
"Underlying all other truths spoken during the Year of Reconciliation is the truth that the modern city of Vancouver was founded on the traditional territories of the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh First Nations and that these territories were never ceded through treaty, war or surrender," reads part of the motion from the city.
The city says it will now work with representatives from the Aboriginal community to determine "appropriate protocols" for conducting city business.
//http://globalnews.ca/news/1416321/city-of-vancouver-formally-declares-city-is-on-unceded-aborginal-territory/
I've actually accepted this decades ago. I live near the village site of X̱wáýx̱way in Stanley Park, where Captain George Vancouver was the first European to meet the indigenous people of this region.
The mayor of Vancouver is nuts(but we knew that anyways)?? There is no separtate Native nations and never will be. There are only Canadians and left wing politicians that seek to divide us(based on race) are on the wrong side of history.
I'm fucking drunk!
I do not know how Shen Li, Gary Oak and Obvious Li can be so cold hearted..
A people's home, culture, language and entire way of life was stolen..
What were they given besides diseases they never knew before.
Quote from: "Fashionista"
A people's home, culture, language and entire way of life was stolen..
What were they given besides diseases they never knew before.
Fash......are you trolling me...seriously......if not, you need to get out of Calgary more often. Failing that possibly read a book about native history written by someone not connected to the modern Indian industry...it can be quite an eye opener....better yet study govt. archives regarding cash payments to indians by canadian taxpayers over the last 100 years....interesting reading.......it is pretty hard to retain your culture, way of life and language when you are swimming in a whiskey bottle or injesting hair spray and lysol out behind the barn.......if there is one thing the white man is guilty of is being too generous ....free money has been their downfall from the onset.....no way to fix it now
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Fashionista"
A people's home, culture, language and entire way of life was stolen..
What were they given besides diseases they never knew before.
Fash......are you trolling me...seriously......if not, you need to get out of Calgary more often. Failing that possibly read a book about native history written by someone not connected to the modern Indian industry...it can be quite an eye opener....better yet study govt. archives regarding cash payments to indians by canadian taxpayers over the last 100 years....interesting reading.......it is pretty hard to retain your culture, way of life and language when you are swimming in a whiskey bottle or injesting hair spray and lysol out behind the barn.......if there is one thing the white man is guilty of is being too generous ....free money has been their downfall from the onset.....no way to fix it now
Obvious Li, my heart pains knowing people suffer.
:(
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Fashionista"
A people's home, culture, language and entire way of life was stolen..
What were they given besides diseases they never knew before.
Fash......are you trolling me...seriously......if not, you need to get out of Calgary more often. Failing that possibly read a book about native history written by someone not connected to the modern Indian industry...it can be quite an eye opener....better yet study govt. archives regarding cash payments to indians by canadian taxpayers over the last 100 years....interesting reading.......it is pretty hard to retain your culture, way of life and language when you are swimming in a whiskey bottle or injesting hair spray and lysol out behind the barn.......if there is one thing the white man is guilty of is being too generous ....free money has been their downfall from the onset.....no way to fix it now
Obvious Li, my heart pains knowing people suffer.
:(
mine too sweetheart....but being an enabler to an addict is not a solution....i live and work with natives...two of my brothers are half native.....i have deep deep sympathies for their situation...but more money sent to chiefs and their families who steal it and become wealthy has not worked..i have no problem with natives controlling what goes on on their lands.....anything to make them self sufficient, proud, industrious members of society.....it pains me to no end to see what goes on daily
currently natives receive between $15K and $25K for every man, woman and child...which means that for a family of 4 they receive between $60K and $100K annually....tax free.......can you imagine what any chinese or asian family could do with $100K free money every year....and they still get free health, education, glasses, prescriptions etc etc on top of that...it is not an issue of not caring...it is an issue of missmanagement
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Fashionista"
A people's home, culture, language and entire way of life was stolen..
What were they given besides diseases they never knew before.
Fash......are you trolling me...seriously......if not, you need to get out of Calgary more often. Failing that possibly read a book about native history written by someone not connected to the modern Indian industry...it can be quite an eye opener....better yet study govt. archives regarding cash payments to indians by canadian taxpayers over the last 100 years....interesting reading.......it is pretty hard to retain your culture, way of life and language when you are swimming in a whiskey bottle or injesting hair spray and lysol out behind the barn.......if there is one thing the white man is guilty of is being too generous ....free money has been their downfall from the onset.....no way to fix it now
Obvious Li, my heart pains knowing people suffer.
:(
Yes, there is suffering among Aboriginals. I have worked on reserves and seen it first hand. Some of the biggest problems are rampant sexual abuse and family violence. These are not problems that can be fixed with more cash or a land claims settlements. In fact, those so-called "solutions" only exacerbate problems. Corrupt chiefs have even more cash to waste on their friends and lovers and fuck everyone else.
The best way to bring Natives into the mainstream of Canadian society is rip up the Indian Act, forget about these silly land claims, close reserves(but allow Natives first chance to buy the land), drop all the wasteful subsidy programs that benefit too many non-Natives and recognize one citizenship along with rights and rules for everyone.
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
No they don't.
Quote from: "Romero"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
No they don't.
Well, how much do they receive?
Don't just say "no they don't" and then run away.
This is an example of why I say that debating you is like arguing with Pee-Wee Herman.
If you wish to foolishly believe that a First Nations family of four is just given $60-100,000 annually, go right ahead! It's like saying American Indians receive between $15K and $25K for every man, woman and child, which would obviously be false.
There's no set amount and it's different for every individual and family. One may get something and another may get nothing, just like every one else in the country. How much does a native on EI receive? It depends!
Sorry, I didn't expect to have to prove something so obviously untrue. I wouldn't know how much you or Obviously Li receive from the government either.
Quote from: "Romero"
There's no set amount and it's different for every individual and family. One may get something and another may get nothing, just like every one else in the country. How much does a native on EI receive? It depends!
Sorry, I didn't expect to have to prove something so obviously untrue. I wouldn't know how much you or Obviously Li receive from the government either.
If it varies then there has to be an average cost. There must be a funding formula the gov. uses for budgeting money for native populations and it propbably breaks down to a per/person basis. So on average how much do they receive? If you don't know then don't make statements you can't back up.
If it's obvious then it should be easy for you.
Quote from: "Renee"
If it's obvious then it should be easy for you.
Obvious Li isn't talking about funding. He's talking about First Nations getting up to $25K annually for nothing, other than what government funding they might receive.
They don't get free money for nothing. First Nations families simply don't receive up to $100K annually. It's kind of hard to back up against something that doesn't happen.
Have you tried using logic and common sense? I think it's pretty clear that if they were receiving that kind of money they would be doing a heckuva lot better.
Quote from: "Romero"
Quote from: "Renee"
If it's obvious then it should be easy for you.
Obvious Li isn't talking about funding. He's talking about First Nations getting up to $25K annually for nothing, other than what government funding they might receive.
They don't get free money for nothing. First Nations families simply don't receive up to $100K annually. It's kind of hard to back up against something that doesn't happen.
Have you tried using logic and common sense? I think it's pretty clear that if they were receiving that kind of money they would be doing a heckuva lot better.
I'm not arguing how well they should or shouldn't be doing nor am I agreeing with OL.
I'm asking you for an answer. As usual you just run in flail around and scream "no they don't" or "you're wrong" or some other ridiculous diversionary proclamation and then never back it up with anything concrete. All you do is express ideological opinion and try to pass it off as fact. It's typical of you and one of the main reasons no one takes you seriously.
If OL's numbers are so obviously wrong then what are the actual numbers, if any? Maybe you should ask him where he gets his info from and try to refute his claims instead of just being obtuse.
I don't need to ask him for his numbers. They don't exist. There's nothing to refute as he didn't get them from anywhere. It's a ridiculous claim.
Quote from: "Romero"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
No they don't.
lol...uhhh.......yes they do !!!!...in fact it is absolutely common for squaws to cash checks at the local credit union for between $4000 and $6000 every month just for child payments....not counting cash payments from the band......then it's off to the casino and try to double up........good deal........and homy, by the way...don't try and be the RW of native indian issues......you know fuck all about the subject
excerpt from a current national post story by Jesse Kline......if you use the numbers 850,000 natives and last years direct payments of 8.5 billion it works out to 11K per man woman and child.....that number does not take into account services provided to natives living off reserve (about 50%) who can get welfare, housing, school etc benefits by applying just like any other citizen...total payments are probably double or triple the 8.5 billion number.....
"In 1995, the federal government spent $6.2-billion on programs directed toward aboriginal people, up from $1.65-billion in the early 1980s. The stark rise in spending was, according to a 1997 report in the Canadian Tax Journal, due to "a rapid increase in the number of registered Indians following changes to the Indian Act in 1985 (Bill C-31); the financial dependency on the federal government of many young Aboriginals entering their adult years; and the native agenda of the Mulroney government."
Depressed economies are exactly what we should expect when we deny private-property rights and encourage dependency
It would be one thing if all this spending were actually improving the lives of aboriginal Canadians. Instead, we hear stories about Third-World living conditions on reserves, such as the housing crisis in Attawapiskat. Last week, Statistics Canada released data showing that aboriginal children are far more likely to be living with a single parent, and that half of Canada's foster children under age 14 are of aboriginal decent.
Throwing money at the problem clearly isn't solving it, and the cost of supporting a growing group of people, including all their descendents, keeps getting higher. There are already some 850,000 Canadians that fall under the jurisdiction of the Indian Act, and 1.4 million who self-identify as aboriginal. According to StatsCan numbers, the aboriginal population grew by 20% between 2006 and 2011, compared to a 5.2% increase in the non-aboriginal population.
This country is also on the cusp of seeing a dramatic rise in the number of status Indians. In January, a federal court ruled that Métis and other non-treaty Indians should be given status under the law. If the ruling is upheld on appeal, it would make more than 600,000 Canadians eligible for health, education and other benefits afforded to status Indians.
In 2008, the federal government signed a deal with the Federation of Newfoundland Indians that allows descendents of the province's Mi'kmaq First Nation to claim Indian status. To be eligible, people merely have to prove they are of "Canadian Indian ancestry" and that they, or their ancestors, were members of the Mi'kmaq tribe before 1949. How much their bloodline has been diluted since then is of no consequence.
The Mi'kmaq band estimated there would be a maximum of 12,000 members claiming status under the agreement. So far, 100,000 people have signed up — including many who no longer reside in Newfoundland.
It is commonly said that the benefits bestowed upon native Canadians are a form of reparations for past injustices. But this continuing stream of reparations isn't doing either side any good. On the government side, it is a ballooning funding obligation. On the aboriginal side, it is a welfare trap.
anecdotally i must add.....i was told at one heated meeting about 30 years ago by a well known chief that they would breed us into bankruptcy.....that every indian woman of child bearing age would be pregnant every year until they out numbered us.......if a woman didn't like it she would simply be fucked by the braves until she was pregnant...this in fact is what has happened....every indian woman you see walking down the street has several kids about a year apart...over 50% of the native population is under age 15...at some point they will in fact bankrupt us if the supreme court continues on with this insanity
That's not free money. That's funding.
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
No they don't.
Quote from: "Romero"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
No they don't.
yes they do
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Gary Oak Syndrome!
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote
//http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/as-sa/99-011-x/99-011-x2011001-eng.cfm
Lorne Gunter has some good ideas here, but they do not go anywhere near far enough. Follow through the recommendations of the 1969 White Paper. No more Indian Act, no more subsidies based on race, no more corrupt unaccountable chiefs like Spence in Attawapiskat, allow the same private property rights everywhere including reserves and most importantly one class of citizenship with equal rights and responsibilities for all.
Quote
That way, First Nations would have to decide whether or not to allow development based on the same criterion the rest of Canadians use to decide their financial priorities. Can we afford to? Can we afford not to?
Without the billions in tax dollars annually showered on First Nations, chiefs and councillors would have to choose with their heads rather than their sentimental hearts.
This is similar to my argument that Quebec should lose much of its annual equalization subsidy.
The Quebec government makes foolish fiscal choices all the time because it can. It doesn't have to own up to its own poor judgment because it can count on Ottawa's billions year after year.
Quebec provides such lavish social benefits as half-price university and college tuition for in-province residents. It also offers cheap, cheap daycare, while at the same time running up huge annual deficits.
The Quebec government has also refused to develop resources such as shale gas and oil out of "green" concerns. If developed, shale alone could bring Quebec's treasury nearly $2 billion a year.
So the only reason Quebec can offer such rich benefits to its citizens is that the provincial government receives $8 to $10 billion in annual equalization payments.
Indeed, this logic should apply to every province, just as it should also apply to First Nations. After all,
On Thursday, the Supreme Court ruled that First Nations can apply for title to huge tracts of land way beyond the boundaries of their reserves. And if successful at winning title, they can have an effective veto over most development on these broad, traditional hunting grounds.
The court's ruling was a little more nuanced than some reports would indicate, but not much more.
"Aboriginal title flows from occupation in the sense of regular and exclusive use of land," Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin wrote. This will not always be an easy standard to satisfy.
A present-day First Nation will have to show that its ancestors routinely hunted, fished or harvested over land it is claiming as its own. Moreover, it will have to show that competing First Nations didn't also make "regular" use of the same tracts.
But once such title is established (and during the whole process to establish whether or not title exists), the justices decided governments have a Charter obligation to seek approval in advance from any First Nation making a claim against the land where development is proposed.
This will likely turn out to be a huge can of worms.
Many First Nations have fallen under the thrall of radical environmental groups backed by billionaire American lefties. If nothing else, Thursday's ruling gives the aboriginal-environmentalist alliance a powerful new club to hold up Canada's economic advancement for years.
However,
Such lavish subsidies permit First Nations to indulge in fanciful thinking because they do not have to factor in the cost to themselves and their families of rejecting development.
So end the subsidies and encourage more rational land-claims negotiations.
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/06/28/lavish-first-nations-subsidies-promote-fanciful-thinking
Anthony Furey puts a little reality on last week's victory for Aboriginal "sovereignty".
Quote
"Aboriginals and non-Aboriginals are 'all here to stay' and must of necessity move forward in a process of reconciliation." That's from the Supreme Court decision released Thursday in the unanimous decision granting the Tsilhqot'in First Nation title to 1,700 km in the British Columbia interior.
It's polite-speak for "let's just get all this over with and get on with our lives."
The whole reason this was before the courts is because after 1923, "treaties were never concluded with First Nations in some parts of Canada, including most of B.C.," as the government's Aboriginal Affairs website explains.
In 1983 B.C. granted a company logging rights to land the Tsilhqot'in claimed. So spurred the legal process that finally ended this week. This is the first time the court has granted Aboriginal title. While reserves are First Nations domain, it's still Crown land.
All corners are asking: What are the long-standing ramifications of this decision?
The SCOC reminds us of a prior court statement that more radical Aboriginal groups would rather ignore: "
So "provincial laws of general application apply to lands held under Aboriginal title."
Not only that, but "general regulatory legislation, such as legislation aimed at managing the forests in a way that deals with pest invasions or prevents forest fires, will often pass this test and no infringement will result."
Therefore, the province can go to put out fires but can't sell off logging rights on land that isn't theirs. Any property rights advocate should appreciate this line of reasoning.
But the bigger worry for some is the chain of events this could trigger. There are more than 100 First Nations bands currently in the process of negotiating treaties with the B.C. Treaty Commission. It's been a tough slog, but has recently yielded conclusive results. Yet it's fair to wonder if instead of continuing down this conciliatory route, bands will now opt to sue for title.
Sure, they can try. However the court has set a high burden on granting further title. The decision tells us that "what makes Aboriginal title unique is that it arises from possession before the assertion of British sovereignty." Doesn't that open a whole can of worms? After all, the extreme activists argue coast-to-coast is Turtle Island and we're all illegal occupants so everybody scram.
Earlier this week Vancouver council unnecessarily declared their territory "unceded" Aboriginal land. A Toronto Star story leading up to the decision quoted one law professor claiming the site of the Supreme Court and Parliament could be up for grabs. The decisions shows this is all nonsense.
Not only would the court never rule that way but they might not even hear such a case. That's because
So a group will need to live on the land in some significant way more or less consistently with how they did hundreds of years before. (And good luck getting a case heard where there is no present occupation.)
This is clearly a matter of a bird in the hand vs. two in the bush. Radical activists might feel emboldened by the Tsilhqot'in decision. But it's a harder route than concluding a treaty. They may even get better results via the latter.
The SCOC has just given a road map to expedite the whole process. So, yes, the Tsilhqot'in outcome could be replicated. But it also means courts have stronger footing to toss out sketchy claims.
Radicals who insist on stoking tensions between Aboriginals and the broader Canadian public will try to use this decision to goad First Nations groups into more adversarial action.
Wrong path. For starters, many of the well-known groups most open to conflict – like Elsipogtog in New Brunswick, Attawapiskat in Ontario and Barriere Lake in Quebec – already have treaties.
But more importantly, this approach fixates on the negative rather than finding a path forward. Whatever solves these disputes the quickest and allows First Nations groups to put their existential questions behind them and redirect their energies to economic prosperity is the optimal route.
The Tsilhqot'in government website has an education program with a clear mandate to "increase Tsilhqot'in peoples participation in the labour market."
That may seem like a no-brainer to many Canadians. But you'd never hear language like that on some reserves.
So the SCOC decision: Long-term good deal for them? For the rest of Canada? Only time will tell. But with a clear decision delivered, onward and upward must be the focus.
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/06/27/getting-beyond-land-claims-treaties
Quote
This late? More like since the 1700s when we first started taking their land away.
They aren't squabbling. They're the ones losing their territory, tradition and culture. We're the ones squabbling to take as much as we can. First Nations have been waiting hundreds of years for land claims to be dealt with.
Quote
No, it was a Supreme Court ruling. As if the Supreme Court has ever made a decision just to "get over with it".
Quote from: "Romero"
Quote
This late? More like since the 1700s when we first started taking their land away.
They aren't squabbling. They're the ones losing their territory, tradition and culture. We're the ones squabbling to take as much as we can. First Nations have been waiting hundreds of years for land claims to be dealt with.
Quote
No, it was a Supreme Court ruling. As if the Supreme Court has ever made a decision just to "get over with it".
This isn't the 1700's, slavery is illegal, Asians are allowed to immigrate here and giving land to Native bands to be controlled by corrupt chiefs is stupid. It's not anyone's interests other than the chiefs and their friends.
Quote from: "Romero"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
No they don't.
Here we go, Pee-Wee Herman strikes again. :lol:
You do know that even if they are getting 25-50k a year, which isn't all that much for a family, all you need is one family member with a drug, alcohol or gambling problem and that 50k is gone in no time. So it is very conceivable that they can receive a decent amount of gov. assistance money and still live in poverty and squalor. So your whole argument that they can't be getting that kind of money because they are still poor is bullshit, as per usual.
This is just another example of how you can't be reasoned with because you are blind to anything beyond your ideological agenda.
Quote from: "Renee"
Here we go, Pee-Wee Herman strikes again. :lol:
This is just another example of how you can't be reasoned with because you are blind to anything beyond your ideological agenda.
That's nothing, on some resource rich reserves in Western Canada members receive a helluva lot more than that. They can receive payments of more than 6 figures. Here's one example from the Hobbema reserve just South of Edmonton.
Quote
"Drug dealers would come into the community and start giving free drugs to 16 year-olds," Soosay says. "And when they reached the age of majority they came to collect."
In 1999,
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/crime/2008/07/20/prisons_poisoning_natives.html
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Renee"
Here we go, Pee-Wee Herman strikes again. :lol:
This is just another example of how you can't be reasoned with because you are blind to anything beyond your ideological agenda.
That's nothing, on some resource rich reserves in Western Canada members receive a helluva lot more than that. They can receive payments of more than 6 figures. Here's one example from the Hobbema reserve just South of Edmonton.
Quote
"Drug dealers would come into the community and start giving free drugs to 16 year-olds," Soosay says. "And when they reached the age of majority they came to collect."
In 1999,
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/crime/2008/07/20/prisons_poisoning_natives.html
Oops, there goes Romero's position on this into the shitter. :lol:
Quote from: "Renee"
Quote from: "Romero"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
No they don't.
Here we go, Pee-Wee Herman strikes again. :lol:
I'm right about that and I was right about First Nations not getting all that free money. Obvious Li's "proof" was indeed just government spending on health care, education etc. like everyone else gets. His only evidence that natives are receiving $15-25K in free money annually is "total payments are probably double or triple"
Probably?
No, they don't. And "squaws", who I call "mothers", do not get $4,000-$6,000 every month for child payments. Obvious Li wants to believe in his hatred so he makes it his reality.
Quote from: "Renee"
Look at you assuming a native is likely to spend all their money on drugs, alcohol and gambling. You sure love those stereotypes.
Quote from: "Renee"
Quote
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/crime/2008/07/20/prisons_poisoning_natives.html
Oops, there goes Romero's position on this into the shitter. :lol:
That was corruption. The government gave that money to the reserve, not the individual.
Quote from: "Romero"
Quote from: "Renee"
Quote
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/crime/2008/07/20/prisons_poisoning_natives.html
Oops, there goes Romero's position on this into the shitter. :lol:
That was corruption. The government gave that money to the reserve, not the individual.
Go back and read and stop making an ass out of yourself. :lol:
So AGAIN? if everyone else is wrong what are the real numbers? I've been asking this for days now and all you have answered with is your usual circle jerk.
BTW, nice try with the smear tactic regarding stereotyping. As I say, you are good for one thing; hysterics, but then again you are a far left liberal so you are very proficient at it. I guess we should all be like you and turn a blind eye to the rampant drug and alcohol abuse among the indigenous peoples. That's kind of like saying that crack and meth abuse doesn't affect the black community; your kind is good for that too.
Quote from: "Renee"
Go back and read and stop making an ass out of yourself. :lol:
If you understood it you would see that the government did not give him that money. Government money is for the needs of the reserve and not meant to be dished out through corruption.
Quote from: "Renee"
There are no real numbers. The government does not give out free money. The answer is $0.
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote from: "Renee"
Here we go, Pee-Wee Herman strikes again. :lol:
This is just another example of how you can't be reasoned with because you are blind to anything beyond your ideological agenda.
That's nothing, on some resource rich reserves in Western Canada members receive a helluva lot more than that. They can receive payments of more than 6 figures. Here's one example from the Hobbema reserve just South of Edmonton.
Quote
"Drug dealers would come into the community and start giving free drugs to 16 year-olds," Soosay says. "And when they reached the age of majority they came to collect."
In 1999,
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/crime/2008/07/20/prisons_poisoning_natives.html
I saw a tv documentary about Hobbema and they discussed the cash giveaways to teenagers and the problems it has created..
I always wondered where the slogan
Too much money has created problems the community would not otherwise have..
That money would be better used for so many other things than giving it to people who are not yet ready for such responsibility.
Quote
common on native reserves with significant oil and gas revenues, such as the
Samson Cree reserve in Hobbema, Alberta (which sits on top of a massive oil
field that accounted, in its prime, for 10 percent of Canada's national oil output).
During the 1980s, the federal government in Canada collected over $783 million
dollars in royalties for the Samson Cree, almost $200,000 for every individual on
the reserve. Half this money was held in trust, the rest was distributed and spent
on various projects. At the time,
royalties each month and teenagers were given $100,000 on their 18th birthday.
At the same time, Hobbema became the suicide capital of the country. Between
1985 and 1987 the male suicide rate was 83 times the national average (peaking at
a rate of 300 per year, in a community of only 6,000) (Laird, 2000, p. 18).
http://carleton.ca/philosophy/wp-content/uploads/panitch-heath.pdf
Yep, the land claims, native self government and control of resources are a wonderful thing for corrupt band councils.
As per Romero's ridiculous claim you cannot be poor if collecting 25-50k, Mel Buffalo who was or maybe still is a Hobbema band councillor is quoted as saying that he's "seen people blow up to $40 k in in a few days on booze, cars and casinos".
Native land claims and self-government are bad because native governments do not really have an opposition, there is no local media to keep em honest(just a band press mouthpiece), no private property or business development because the chief and band council decide who lives where and what gets built. They also have budgets disproportionate to similar sized local governments with bloated civil service and yes those jobs are also filled by who the corrupt chief and council like.
You want t see how easy it is for wealthy native bands can have such poverty. They also have great wealthy too, but because they are so corrupt the money is not allowed to filter through and improve the lives of the masses.
Quote
By The Calgary Herald April 20, 2008
Of any reserve in Canada, the Samson Cree Nation is a prime example of how money can't solve social problems.
The reserve, where 23-month-old Asia Saddleback was shot in the stomach when a gang bullet blasted into the kitchen wall, is one of the wealthiest in Canada. It sits atop a vast oil reserve that has netted Samson residents hundreds of millions of dollars in royalties. Samson Oil and Gas is a wholly aboriginal-owned company headquartered in Hobbema, whose mandate is "enhancing the wealth of its shareholder, Samson Cree Nation, and providing employment and opportunity to First Nations in the oil and gas sector." Among the reserve's investments, further generating community wealth, is St. Eugene's resort complex with golf and a casino in Cranbrook, B.C. The Nation's economic development department's goal is to "promote and facilitate the development of a strong and diversified economic and tourism base in our community."
Yet, the drug trade is flourishing, in part because of Hobbema's position as a route for drug supplies to Fort McMurray, and the area gang count is 13 -- this is with a combined population among four neighbouring reserves of just 12,000 people. Drive-by shootings like the one that left Asia with a bullet lodged permanently in her abdomen are commonplace. Two-thirds of calls to the Hobbema RCMP come from the Samson reserve.
Something is lacking here, and it's not money. What's missing is what money can't buy -- a sense of community and individual purpose.
The RCMP can vow to step up policing, Indian Affairs can offer to help and Chief Marvin Yellowbird can declare the band council is "dedicated to the reduction of gang activity." But unless individuals work toward change in their own lives, nothing will be accomplished. There are models for change all around -- for one, there's the example set by Chief Clarence Louie of the thriving Osoyoos band in B.C., whose ground rule is that band members must be at work or at school; doing nothing is unacceptable.
Last year, Bryce Montour, then a Grade 8 student at Hobbema's Ermineskin Junior-Senior High School, wrote in a letter to the Herald about the social problems he sees around him: "The worst is the gangs; the gangs are killing each other. People are dying because of this; there are drive-bys, and people are drinking and driving." Classmate George Saddleback wrote: "(Our people) abuse themselves with gang violence and drug abuse."
Out of the mouths of babes comes the impetus for change; the cry needs to be taken up by the entire community, one individual at a time, until it becomes a roar.
http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/theeditorialpage/story.html?id=e7ca8173-a63b-4311-9cd1-f65f385ac7c6
Quote from: "Romero"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
No they don't.
i will pass on your comments to the manager of the local credit union, who is a good friend of mine and needs to sign off on each check before it is cashed.....i'm sure she will appreciate your ability to enact denial as a method of changing reality.......in this small community she deals with more than a dozen of these instances ($4K to 6K range) every month...i assume Dog River is not the only place it happens....
Quote from: "Shen Li"
Quote
common on native reserves with significant oil and gas revenues, such as the
Samson Cree reserve in Hobbema, Alberta (which sits on top of a massive oil
field that accounted, in its prime, for 10 percent of Canada's national oil output).
During the 1980s, the federal government in Canada collected over $783 million
dollars in royalties for the Samson Cree, almost $200,000 for every individual on
the reserve. Half this money was held in trust, the rest was distributed and spent
on various projects. At the time,
royalties each month and teenagers were given $100,000 on their 18th birthday.
At the same time, Hobbema became the suicide capital of the country. Between
1985 and 1987 the male suicide rate was 83 times the national average (peaking at
a rate of 300 per year, in a community of only 6,000) (Laird, 2000, p. 18).
http://carleton.ca/philosophy/wp-content/uploads/panitch-heath.pdf
Yep, the land claims, native self government and control of resources are a wonderful thing for corrupt band councils.
As per Romero's ridiculous claim you cannot be poor if collecting 25-50k, Mel Buffalo who was or maybe still is a Hobbema band councillor is quoted as saying that he's "seen people blow up to $40 k in in a few days on booze, cars and casinos".
yes the stories of how fast the money goes are legendary.....back in the day the local whites used to buy their quads, boats, pickups etc from the natives at Hobemma.....most of the time the stuff was only a few days old and had hardly or never been used.....but they were out of money and needed cash to pay off the local gang enforcers......got a snowmobile once for $400 and two 24's of Blue...plastic was still on it and it was still in the back of the guys truck.....easy peasy japaneasy
Interesting article by Christie Blatchford about the lack of transparency and accountability by reserve councils for the tens of millions they receive from both Ottawa and industry.
Quote
Well, that's my experience. So it was with the Caledonia occupation; and this week again with the shooting death of Ethan Yellowbird on the Samson Cree First Nation, one of four First Nations situated south of Edmonton at a place called Hobbema in English and Maskwacis, Cree for "bear hills," to natives.
The good news is that there are many people who have spent lifetimes either trying to figure out the problems or observing them, who are infinitely smarter than me, and who sometimes kindly write in aid of my further education.
A classic example of what I mean is that I said once this week that the competition for seats on the Samson council (a dozen people ran for Chief, 92 for 12 council positions) was surely a sign of a healthy community, I was dead wrong.
In the federal riding of Trinity-Spadina in downtown Toronto where I live, such a great number of candidates might signal a raucous democracy.
But on reserves, it usually means just the opposite: The reason such jobs as so hotly contested is because residents are desperate to get a piece of a highly politicized pie, not to mention the jobs for family members.
One of the most cogent policy papers I have ever read in my life is on this very subject, First Nations governance.
Written by a former federal bureaucrat named John Graham who has made aboriginal governance his bailiwick, it was produced for the Ottawa-based Institute on Governance, a non-profit think tank.
Now a private consultant, though still a senior associate at the institute, Graham wrote it in April of last year. It identifies 11 significant problems with First Nations governments that act as a brake upon reserve health.
The impetus was the revelation that
Community well-being is how the federal aboriginal-affairs people measure health — using indices of education, housing, labour force and income.
"So why is the gap widening?" Graham asked.
His answer: A principal cause is the degree of dysfunction in First Nations governance, which he describes as "unmatched in any other jurisdiction in Canada."
The specific problems that collectively slow progress range from Ottawa's own difficulties in taking a whole-of-community approach to development (there are 30 different federal departments that deal with First Nations) to an attitude of victimization from FNs (here, Graham quoted the writer Irshad Manji's lovely line that "The language of victimhood seduces, then paralyzes").
But the bottom line is that the average reserve works like a company town, and as someone who grew up in one in northwestern Quebec, I can't help but agree.
In my town, the copper mine was the key employer, owned the golf course, recreation centre and swimming pool, and most of the houses.
Same thing on a reserve.
But in my small town, there were all
Not so on reserves, which may explain why walking into a band office is akin to that scene from old Westerns, where the stranger enters the bar and everyone turns to give her the long hard stare of suspicion.
At the Yellow Quill reserve in Saskatchewan, for instance, once-shiny fire trucks sat rusting and unused when I was there a couple of years ago — no volunteers. And
FN governments are also huge, "perhaps the largest local governments in the world," Graham writes. He has been on 700-member reserves with a public service of 100.
Now, they have responsibilities that comparably sized municipal governments in the rest of the country would never dream of taking on, particularly the big three of education, health and social assistance.
As Graham told me in an email, "It's another indicator of how pervasive FN governments are in the lives of their citizens."
(If the Indian Act mandates one chief and one councillor for every 100 band members, it also allows the band to customize the numbers, an option that in some cases has actually increased the number of politicians.)
This has led to frenzied family competition, what Graham calls "rapid political churn," and the overt politicization of the public service.
I've just scratched the surface of what's in the paper; you can find it yourself on the institute's website, and his own website.
But it all goes to answer the question I had all week in Hobbema.
Samson has revenue from oil and gas royalties. In addition,
So why does all that money buy so little for the people in that run-down, impoverished place?
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/07/16/christie-blatchford-in-hobbema-where-does-the-money-go/
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Romero"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
No they don't.
i will pass on your comments to the manager of the local credit union, who is a good friend of mine and needs to sign off on each check before it is cashed.....
Don't we all? Romero has raised the art of denial to almost legendary heights. He uses it exclusively in almost every debate he enters no matter what the topic happens to be. It's simply amazing. :lol:
What is undeniable is the massive waste that happens with monies meant for Native-Canadians. My eyes really opened to that when the books were opened on Attawapiskat's malfeasance. Millions and millions and millions of dollars transferred to that tiny reserve and the chief cannot give an account of what happened to it. I hope for their sakes third party management is an improvement even if it is only marginally.
Quote from: "Renee"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Romero"
No they don't.
i will pass on your comments to the manager of the local credit union, who is a good friend of mine and needs to sign off on each check before it is cashed.....
Don't we all? Romero has raised the art of denial to almost legendary heights. He uses it exclusively in almost every debate he enters no matter what the topic happens to be. It's simply amazing. :lol:
Obvious Li is making it up.
First he claimed natives are being given up to $25,000 annually in free money, but his only evidence is "probably".
Then he claimed over 50% of the native population is under age 15, but it's actually 28% according to Statistics Canada.
First Nations parents do not receive anywhere near $4,000-6,000 in child support every month.
Quote from: "Romero"
Quote from: "Renee"
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
i will pass on your comments to the manager of the local credit union, who is a good friend of mine and needs to sign off on each check before it is cashed.....
Don't we all? Romero has raised the art of denial to almost legendary heights. He uses it exclusively in almost every debate he enters no matter what the topic happens to be. It's simply amazing. :lol:
Obvious Li is making it up.
Then he claimed over 50% of the native population is under age 15, but it's actually 28% according to Statistics Canada.
First Nations parents do not receive anywhere near $4,000-6,000 in child support every month.
[/b]
i'm talking reserve indians Homy....citified indians are a whole nother kettle of fish......reserve indians get a lot of the designated per capita funding earmarked for the industrious indians that have left the third world reserves for the second world downtown slums......
Attawapiskat, a settlement with fewer than 1,600 residents, had an annual operating budget of nearly $32 million. Meanwhile, Atikokan, Ont., near Thunder Bay had almost 3,300 inhabitants — more than double that of Attawapiskat — and yet spent just $8.4 million providing municipal services. That's one-quarter the budget for a town with twice the population, or $20,140 per capita in Attawapiskat versus $2,550 in Atikokan.
This does not include revenue of $51 million in 2011 alone from the DeBeers Victor mine. By the way, how that money is spent is decided by the competent management(haha) of Chief Spends and her $250 k/year lover.
OL is spot on, reserves are by their unaccountable nature are a sink hole for our money. They also don't serve any Native other than 1 per center chiefs. Get rid of reserves, get rid of the Indian Act, bring in private property and make Natives main stream and prosperous while saving taxpayers billions of $$.
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Romero"
Quote from: "Renee"
Don't we all? Romero has raised the art of denial to almost legendary heights. He uses it exclusively in almost every debate he enters no matter what the topic happens to be. It's simply amazing. :lol:
Obvious Li is making it up.
Then he claimed over 50% of the native population is under age 15, but it's actually 28% according to Statistics Canada.
First Nations parents do not receive anywhere near $4,000-6,000 in child support every month.
[/b]
i'm talking reserve indians Homy....citified indians are a whole nother kettle of fish......reserve indians get a lot of the designated per capita funding earmarked for the industrious indians that have left the third world reserves for the second world downtown slums......
I'm talking any Indians, reserve or not. The government does not secretly dish out thousands of dollars a month, especially when it doesn't have to. Canadian parents get hundreds for government child support, not thousands.
The feds use deceptive accounting to arrive at the figures of 5-6 billion per year spent on Aboriginals in Canada. The true cost to taxpayers could be closer to $26 billion per year and growing at a rate of 4.3%/year.
http://www.caledoniawakeupcall.com/news/funding.html
There is some disingenuous nutjob claiming Natives are subsidizing Canada to the tune of 100's of billions of dollars per year because they are not getting their "fair share" of resource revenue?? Do you believe that bullshit? They don't put up initial capital/take risks, invest in R&D, provide engineering or anything else involved in either the science or the entrepreneurial skills involved with large projects but they are owed because they are of a certain ethnicity that is "lending it's land". :roll:
Quote from: "Shen Li"
http://www.caledoniawakeupcall.com/news/funding.html
There is some disingenuous nutjob claiming Natives are subsidizing Canada to the tune of 100's of billions of dollars per year because they are not getting their "fair share" of resource revenue?? Do you believe that bullshit? They don't put up initial capital/take risks, invest in R&D, provide engineering or anything else involved in either the science or the entrepreneurial skills involved with large projects but they are owed because they are of a certain ethnicity that is "lending it's land". :roll:
i agree with your $26 B number.....i suspect that is much closer to the real cost of keeping these whiners fed, housed and happy....no matter how you slice it it is a huge amount of taxpayer dollars being wasted....and growing every year.....
Bleeding heart liberals believe that we simply must give natives more and more and when that isn't enough then ive them even more. As they usually don' have any interests other than drinking , violence, screwing and drugs it isn't surprising that there are may native communities with a high birthrate combined with a culture of fetal alcohol syndrome.. Sure we need more people but barely literate folks with no knowledge, ill manners, fetal alcohol syndrome low IQ's etc.... isn't helping. With their high birthrate and quickly increasing population it will require a much higher tax base to cover their every whim.
Quote from: "Obvious Li"
Quote from: "Shen Li"
http://www.caledoniawakeupcall.com/news/funding.html
There is some disingenuous nutjob claiming Natives are subsidizing Canada to the tune of 100's of billions of dollars per year because they are not getting their "fair share" of resource revenue?? Do you believe that bullshit? They don't put up initial capital/take risks, invest in R&D, provide engineering or anything else involved in either the science or the entrepreneurial skills involved with large projects but they are owed because they are of a certain ethnicity that is "lending it's land". :roll:
i agree with your $26 B number.....i suspect that is much closer to the real cost of keeping these whiners fed, housed and happy....no matter how you slice it it is a huge amount of taxpayer dollars being wasted....and growing every year.....
Yes, indeed OL. The good news is that immigrants have less tolerance for this foolishness. I posted an article about it a while ago. A survey showed immigrants are less tolerant of land claims, the Indian Act, blockades, the bribery, the unaccountability and all the other scams and double standards surrounding relations with First Nations people. That does bode well for the future.