We're coming up on 4 years since Russia's unprovoked excursion into Ukraine.
Millions of soldiers and countless citizens injured, maimed or killed, many formerly thriving cities have been reduced to rubble. Russia has the advantage of manpower and machinery but have lost so much of both they're scrambling to replenish their ranks and are using outdated equipment that is pulled from storage.
Both countries are suffering economically and incurring billions of dollars of damage in infrastructure and property damage.
So Trump comes up with a 28 point peace plan that Putin should be salivating at, it gives him almost everything he asked for including land he hasn't conquered yet and may never will.
Zelensky understandably rebuffs the plan which is heavily weighted in Russian's favor, but rather surprisingly, so does the Kremlin. Why would they persist given such a favorable option to end the war and all it's carnage?
Several European countries have stated that Putin poses a threat far greater than Ukraine and may attack Nato in whole or in part. Russia can't even win a war against a relatively small, weaker country, they've exhausted a huge amount of their military strength battling this one country. Why would anyone in their right mind believe they pose a threat to Nato who would clearly wipe them off the face of the planet if given sufficient provocation?
I just read a new article on MSN: "3 things that JD Vance states are 3 requirements for any peace plan to work".
I almost laughed out loud at number 2. As per the most recent US Peace Plan which is basically giving Putin everything he wants, and both sides rejected it.
・Stop the killings while preserving Ukraine's sovereignty;
・Be acceptable to both Russia and Ukraine;
・Maximize the chances that the war will not resume.
I expect the only thing that will stop this war anytime soon is some sort of uprising against Putin and whoever takes over agrees to drawing new territorial lines on the current fronts.
Quote from: wizer on November 22, 2025, 02:21:12 AMWe're coming up on 4 years since Russia's unprovoked excursion into Ukraine.
There's your first boggle: it wasn't "unprovoked".
Seek information sources that aren't biased with Rusophobic western imperialist narratives and I'm sure your questions will answer themselves in short order.
Quote from: Garraty_47 on November 22, 2025, 05:48:28 AMThere's your first boggle: it wasn't "unprovoked".
The expansion of NATO was perceived to be a threat by Russia so that's why they invaded. I've seen that particular narrative, not really buying it. Especially given that no one has been bothering Russia, possibly because they've got the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet and prior to the Ukraine war they were perceived as being a formidable military adversary.
Quote from: wizer on November 22, 2025, 06:30:40 AMThe expansion of NATO was perceived to be a threat by Russia so that's why they invaded.
That's part of it.
After the 2014 USA-backed Ukraine coup the Donbas region (mostly native Russian speakers who wanted to stay aligned with Russia instead of the new regime in Kiev) was attacked and shelled/bombed by their own alleged government. Despite repeated unsuccessful attempts by Russia to negotiate a peace between the Ukrainian coup government and Ukraine's own citizens in the Donbas the attacks continued until Russia finally decided to act.
Even then Ukraine could have agreed to stop attacking the Donbas and allow them a measure of independence (the region still would have been considered Ukrainian territory) to prevent the Russian military operation.
Ukraine, under the direction of the USA and NATO, rejected all overtures for peace. Previously Ukraine had merely used the Minsk accords as a delaying tactic while USA/NATO armed Ukraine's military for a conflict; that Russia was even willing to negotiate with a regime that demonstrably wouldn't negotiate in good faith is an indication of how much Russia preferred a peaceful resolution.
So that's another piece of the large and complicated puzzle depicting the Russia/Ukraine conflict but a rather important one, I believe.
Quote from: Garraty_47 on November 22, 2025, 07:42:42 AMEven then Ukraine could have agreed to stop attacking the Donbas and allow them a measure of independence (the region still would have been considered Ukrainian territory) to prevent the Russian military operation.
All that you wrote there is spot on except this part. There's no way to know if Ukraine not attacking the Donbas would have been enough to prevent the war. From what I've read, Putin is looking to restore Russia to it's former "greatness" by expanding. And again, that threat of NATO expansion as well as Ukraine's aspirations to join.
Quote from: wizer on November 22, 2025, 07:47:50 AMFrom what I've read, Putin is looking to restore Russia to it's former "greatness" by expanding.
Speculation based on... what?
Not Putin's own words from what I've seen.
How many countries has Russia invaded and/or occupied in the past several decades? I'd hazard a guess that number is far far smaller than the number of countries 'Murica has attacked, invaded, and occupied... sometimes for decades. Don't even get me started on the economic warfare (sanctions, etc. which essentially target the civilian populations in order to foment instability) which has seen 'Murica attack literally half the planet or more.
Which nation has imperialist hegemonic aspirations is objectively quite clear.
Well either way, Putin has been offered a resolution which if accepted, hands that entire region back to Russia, all he's gotta do is give it the nod. It doesn't sound like Zelenskyy has too many options at this point.
Quote from: wizer on November 22, 2025, 08:02:37 AMWell either way, Putin has been offered a resolution which if accepted, hands that entire region back to Russia, all he's gotta do is give it the nod. It doesn't sound like Zelenskyy has too many options at this point.
Zelensky only ever had two options: be reasonable or sacrifice an entire generation of Ukrainians for NATO's imperialist goals. He chose the latter. Like all modern wars NATO/USA foments or launches it isn't meant to be won... it's meant to be perpetual. It's meant to weaken and destabilize one of our assigned "enemies" and advance a dominionist strategy.
Our "enemies" aren't chosen based on the flowery verbiage used to lie our way into wars; democracy, rule of law, human rights, etc.; which is why we cozy up with dictators, monarchs, theocracies, and violent and/or wholly corrupt regimes whose utility is based on their willingness to bend the knee and allow us to exploit them.
Our "enemies" are apparently identified by being unwilling to accept the status of vassal states and displaying the audacity to have their countries so close to our military bases which to be fair are so plentiful it's difficult to imagine how any nation on Earth could possibly avoid having one as a neighbor.
The sad sordid truth is that 'Murica is this timeline's supervillain but even more infuriating is that Murica's citizens have apathetically allowed it to happen or enthusiastically cheered it on.
I still like to read about Russia getting the crap beat out of it even if ultimately they're gaining ground.
Quote from: wizer on November 22, 2025, 02:21:12 AMWe're coming up on 4 years since Russia's unprovoked excursion into Ukraine.
Millions of soldiers and countless citizens injured, maimed or killed, many formerly thriving cities have been reduced to rubble. Russia has the advantage of manpower and machinery but have lost so much of both they're scrambling to replenish their ranks and are using outdated equipment that is pulled from storage.
Both countries are suffering economically and incurring billions of dollars of damage in infrastructure and property damage.
So Trump comes up with a 28 point peace plan that Putin should be salivating at, it gives him almost everything he asked for including land he hasn't conquered yet and may never will.
Zelensky understandably rebuffs the plan which is heavily weighted in Russian's favor, but rather surprisingly, so does the Kremlin. Why would they persist given such a favorable option to end the war and all it's carnage?
Several European countries have stated that Putin poses a threat far greater than Ukraine and may attack Nato in whole or in part. Russia can't even win a war against a relatively small, weaker country, they've exhausted a huge amount of their military strength battling this one country. Why would anyone in their right mind believe they pose a threat to Nato who would clearly wipe them off the face of the planet if given sufficient provocation?
NATO/US instigating this war was never about a realistic threat to NATO. It was about creating a cash cow for US defense contractors to leech on for decades.
How can anyone believe that there was a realistic threat to NATO that the absorption of Ukraine would in any way resolve, when in fact, Putin warned that it it would be a red line for IF Ukraine joined NATO
So let me get this straight, the administration in power at the time this conflict was just ramping up our leaders wanted us to believe that Ukraine had to join NATO to be protected from assault by Russia. When it was this very act that caused an assault by Russia and to this very day NATO has neither allowed Ukraine entry into the good ole boys club nor put boots on the ground
What Putin did was no different than what JFK did during the cuban missile crisis. he didn't want nukes a mere 90 miles off US shores and was willing to attack the carribean Island to ensure that never became a reality. Only difference the Russian leader at the time conceded. In this instance NATO had pressure and promise from the Biden administration and took an alternative route.
And to some extent I'm sure Putin is in on this scheme in some shape or form as well. SOMEONE of influence in Russia is getting rich off this human tragedy or they'd a) been eliminated Ukraine entirely or b) sat at the negotiating table the way your post describes.
The average people who just want to live are always pawns in these affairs.
Quote from: wizer on November 22, 2025, 06:30:40 AMThe expansion of NATO was perceived to be a threat by Russia so that's why they invaded. I've seen that particular narrative, not really buying it. Especially given that no one has been bothering Russia, possibly because they've got the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet and prior to the Ukraine war they were perceived as being a formidable military adversary.
If you are a competent Russian military strategist you are thinking 10 years out. Today Russia may have a sizeable, albeit aging nuclear arsenal that acts as a deterrent to US aggression, but in 10 years military advancements may make it so that a bordering nation can strike key targets in milliseconds as opposed to seconds creating an environment where a first strike is both overwhelming and totally devastating to the continuation of their government. A similar philosophy governed JFK's response during the cuban missile crisis
I don't blame Putin for his concerns on that front and I believe we should have taken him at his word and let sleeping dogs lay. Remember the old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it"
HE wasn't invading at the time nor shortly before and you have to wonder what the region would look like now had that scumbag puppet Zelensky cared enough about his people to turn down the lucrative finanical deals that came along with yielding to Raytheon's financial interests
Quote from: Biggie Smiles on November 22, 2025, 10:01:10 AMIf you are a competent Russian military strategist you are thinking 10 years out.
Funny that you mention 10 years out. As I understand it, the US security guarantees in the proposed peace plan are only good for 10 years.
Quote from: wizer on November 22, 2025, 10:07:57 AMFunny that you mention 10 years out. As I understand it, the US security guarantees in the proposed peace plan are only good for 10 years.
It's all a game they play my friend.
War is a very lucrative and sustainable income generator. The more bombs that are dropped the more that need to be built. Or course, the reverse is true with human life. The more people that die the less natural resources are consumed and the greater there is a need for technological advancements such as AI to fill the void
They are making money off this conflict coming AND going.
How you think Zelensky became a billionaire ?
Quote from: Biggie Smiles on November 22, 2025, 10:12:11 AMHow you think Zelensky became a billionaire ?
Aren't you even going to make it multiple choice?
All of these conflicts; Russia, China, Iran, Venezuela, etc.; are happening because the USA will accept nothing less than total global hegemony. We're not the least bit interested in a multipolar world that relies on cooperation and decentralization. Either we're at the top of a strict hierarchy of power or we'll set the world on fire and bring it all crashing down with us.
We've forced the rest of the planet to find ways to circumvent and avoid us (think BRICS, as an example) like you'd avoid a rabid animal wandering around your neighborhood. We've literally sown the seeds for our own collapse and all that remains to be seen is how much shit we'll petulantly fuck up on our way out.
Play stoopid games; win stoopid prizes.
The US instigated the war between Ukraine and Russia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNC3N93YYNE
Quote from: Brent on November 22, 2025, 12:09:27 PMThe US instigated the war between Ukraine and Russia.
I don't think too many would disagree that the NATO expansion was a large part of what triggered Russia's aggression towards Ukraine, however the US is not the only country that decided that NATO should be expanded right up to Russia's border.
As the only person on this forum who is an Eastern Slav and can speak Ukrainian, I am pissed off with all the American meddling in the country of my parents birth.
The eastern-most portion of Ukraine where most people speak Russian as their first language. In early 2014, civil war broke out in the Donbass after a US-backed coup d'état had ousted the Russian-leaning government in Kiev. The coup was clearly orchestrated by Biden's nominee for undersecretary of state for political affairs, Victoria Nuland, who was then assistant secretary of state for European affairs; she probably had the CIA's assistance. Someone, likely the Russians, intercepted and leaked Nuland's phone call to the then-US ambassador Jeffrey Pyatt. Their discussion was to decide who was to be the next prime minister of Ukraine. Nuland's choice was Arseniy Yatsenyuk, a rabidly anti-Russian politician. Nuland famously said: 'I think Yats is the guy.' When Pyatt warned Nuland that the Europeans might not support Yatsenyuk, Nuland diplomatically replied: 'Fuck the EU.' Yats ended up as prime minister.
Neoconservative revisionist historians like to point to Russia's invasion of Crimea as the origin of the recent Ukrainian crisis. This account of history is, quite frankly, ludicrous. Nuland's meddling in the internal politics of Russia's neighbor is the equivalent of Putin orchestrating a coup in Canada to install a pro-Russian prime minister. American diplomats should not be arrogantly choosing the prime ministers of countries in the backyards of other great powers. The US's blockheaded diplomats instigated the crisis.
FUCK THE NORTH ATLANTIC TERRORIST ORGANIZATION
The Warsaw Pact is gone and that archaic organization is not only still around they are creating Hitlers and annexing new stooge countries. Remember when Slobadan Milosevic was going to start WW3?
The US has broken every security assurance made to Russia since the dissolution of the USSR.
I agree with Garraty on US foreign policy. It is controlled by the military-industrial complex. They need enemies or they are out of business.
Quote from: Shen Li on November 22, 2025, 10:20:22 PMFUCK THE NORTH ATLANTIC TERRORIST ORGANIZATION
The Warsaw Pact is gone and that archaic organization is not only still around they are creating Hitlers and annexing new stooge countries. Remember when Slobadan Milosevic was going to start WW3?
The US has broken every security assurance made to Russia since the dissolution of the USSR.
I agree with Garraty on US foreign policy. It is controlled by the military-industrial complex. They need enemies or they are out of business.
It is just like in ancient Rome where mothers would yell out to their unruly children "Hannibal ad portas!" (Hannibal is at the gates!) to scare them into good behavior.
Now, in this post-9/11 world, the same thing is played out on a global scale. Create false narratives of national security issues and defense contractors get a nice slice of pie.
The media is also complicit in this by not doing the legwork of a deep analysis of things as they happen. Even OAN, which I trust the most, is sloppy in looking in depth of foreign/defense policy issues.
Quote from: Shen Li on November 22, 2025, 10:20:22 PMFUCK THE NORTH ATLANTIC TERRORIST ORGANIZATION
The Warsaw Pact is gone and that archaic organization is not only still around they are creating Hitlers and annexing new stooge countries. Remember when Slobadan Milosevic was going to start WW3?
The US has broken every security assurance made to Russia since the dissolution of the USSR.
I agree with Garraty on US foreign policy. It is controlled by the military-industrial complex. They need enemies or they are out of business.
Europe can look after it's own defense. So can Japan, South Korea and Israel.
Latest news from the front. Russia isn't onboard with the peace plan, it looks to be several more years of bloodshed.
Depending on which article you read, either Ukraine is going to run out of soldiers or the Russian economy is going to completely collapse which may bring the war to a close sooner rather than later.
Quote from: wizer on November 24, 2025, 03:27:21 PMDepending on which article you read, either Ukraine is going to run out of soldiers or the Russian economy is going to completely collapse which may bring the war to a close sooner rather than later.
Ukraine ran out of soldiers a while back which is why we've seen clips of young(ish) men being grabbed and piled into vans as 'volunteers' for service. This is from a year ago: "
The average age of a Ukrainian soldier is 43, and men aged from 18 to 60 are barred from leaving the country."
https://www.forcesnews.com/ukraine/ukraine-faces-seemingly-endless-russian-soldiers-refuses-send-18-years-war
As for the Russian economy it was *supposed* to collapse thanks to the Biden regime blowing up Nordstream and slapping Russia with every sanction they could think of, but the USA has been playing those games too much for too long and these days the only countries they'll really work on are small and/or still dependent on us in some way. Russia is neither of those things.