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THeBlueCashew

General Discussion => The Flea Trap => Topic started by: Anonymous on May 26, 2017, 04:09:25 PM

Title: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: Anonymous on May 26, 2017, 04:09:25 PM
This is from Seattle with a $15/hr minimum wage. Service jobs are disappearing. I check  through my own groceries.

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Title: Re: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: RW on May 26, 2017, 04:11:03 PM
So you think those jobs are disappearing because of the cost of minimum wage or is this just the direction we are heading in terms of automation with the lower skilled jobs the first to go to the bots?
Title: Re: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: Anonymous on May 26, 2017, 04:20:16 PM
Quote from: "RW"So you think those jobs are disappearing because of the cost of minimum wage or is this just the direction we are heading in terms of automation with the lower skilled jobs the first to go to the bots?

No,no, these jobs are gone in the future no matter what the minimum wage is. I'm just wondering if a higher minimum wage, especially a sudden large increase speeds up the extinction.
Title: Re: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: RW on May 26, 2017, 04:33:53 PM
Quote from: "seoulbro"
Quote from: "RW"So you think those jobs are disappearing because of the cost of minimum wage or is this just the direction we are heading in terms of automation with the lower skilled jobs the first to go to the bots?

No,no, these jobs are gone in the future no matter what the minimum wage is. I'm just wondering if a higher minimum wage, especially a sudden large increase speeds up the extinction.

Considering profits drive this system, you can bet it is as is anything that impacts the bottom line.  Staffing costs are a big budget line in most workplaces.



The trouble with the direction we're heading is if no one has a job, how will anyone be able to buy what this corps make?
Title: Re: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: Anonymous on May 26, 2017, 04:42:16 PM
Quote from: "RW"
Quote from: "seoulbro"
Quote from: "RW"So you think those jobs are disappearing because of the cost of minimum wage or is this just the direction we are heading in terms of automation with the lower skilled jobs the first to go to the bots?

No,no, these jobs are gone in the future no matter what the minimum wage is. I'm just wondering if a higher minimum wage, especially a sudden large increase speeds up the extinction.

Considering profits drive this system, you can bet it is as is anything that impacts the bottom line.  Staffing costs are a big budget line in most workplaces.



The trouble with the direction we're heading is if no one has a job, how will anyone be able to buy what this corps make?

Not necessarily. When my parents first came to Canada, the gas station we owned had attendants and nobody filled their own tank. After numerous complaints about waiting, my dad opened two self serve pumps. The line up was always at those two, so we eventually went to all self serve.



People like doing simple tasks for themselves rather than waiting for someone to do what they can do faster.
Title: Re: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: Romero on May 26, 2017, 05:42:52 PM
QuoteSeattle-area unemployment rate down to 3.5%



(//%3C/s%3E%3CURL%20url=%22https://cdn.geekwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/unemploy1.png%22%3E%3CLINK_TEXT%20text=%22https://cdn.geekwire.com/wp-content/upl%20...%20mploy1.png%22%3Ehttps://cdn.geekwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/unemploy1.png%3C/LINK_TEXT%3E%3C/URL%3E%3Ce%3E)



The unemployment rate in Seattle continued its 5-year decline in February, reaching 3.5 percent, according to figures released Wednesday by Washington's Employment Security Department.



Washington gained 6,100 jobs in February, according to the report, and the preliminary unemployment rate for the state dropped to 4.9 percent — down from 5.1 percent in January. The rate a year ago was 5.6 percent.



For the 12-month period ending in February, 85,100 jobs were added in the state. In the Seattle region, which includes the cities of Bellevue and Everett, 58,100 are reportedly unemployed — down 12,200 from a year ago.



//https://www.geekwire.com/2017/seattle-area-unemployment-rate-3-5-tech-jobs-continue-power-steady-decline/
Title: Re: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: Anonymous on May 26, 2017, 07:31:28 PM
Quote from: "seoulbro"
Quote from: "RW"
Quote from: "seoulbro"
Quote from: "RW"So you think those jobs are disappearing because of the cost of minimum wage or is this just the direction we are heading in terms of automation with the lower skilled jobs the first to go to the bots?

No,no, these jobs are gone in the future no matter what the minimum wage is. I'm just wondering if a higher minimum wage, especially a sudden large increase speeds up the extinction.

Considering profits drive this system, you can bet it is as is anything that impacts the bottom line.  Staffing costs are a big budget line in most workplaces.



The trouble with the direction we're heading is if no one has a job, how will anyone be able to buy what this corps make?

Not necessarily. When my parents first came to Canada, the gas station we owned had attendants and nobody filled their own tank. After numerous complaints about waiting, my dad opened two self serve pumps. The line up was always at those two, so we eventually went to all self serve.



People like doing simple tasks for themselves rather than waiting for someone to do what they can do faster.

Who would want to work in a small Korean family owned business? Just kidding.
Title: Re: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: JOE on May 27, 2017, 01:22:52 AM
Quote from: "seoulbro"This is from Seattle with a $15/hr minimum wage. Service jobs are disappearing. I check  through my own groceries.

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I think one major oversight of the minimum wage advocates is they don't seem to realize that the employer needs a break too. You can't just ask them to pay more if they don't get something back in return such ad a cut for them such as payroll taxes. Or for every new hire they get a tax break. I don't believe in a soak the rich mentality. If Microsoft hires 3000 new employees or a local restaurant hires 3, what difference does it make if it's a large business or small? A jobs a job. That's one mistake of the NDP in our province. They have this us against them mentality when they should be rewarding and incentivizing job crestion no matter how large or small the business.



Also, they should set up a more,realistic timeline for a $15 wage. Proably more like 8 years and then dine very gradually. That way it improves the workers wsge while,allowing the business to absorb the wage increase.
Title: Re: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: Angry White Male on May 27, 2017, 02:41:03 AM
From Brocket 99, I'm gonna tell it like it is!



Wages are stagnant.



I run my own business, and rates are stagnant.



Bank of Canada refuses to raise interest rates, because wages are stagnant.



Everything is stagnant.  EVERYTHING!



Why?  Globalism.  Some Chink or some Bangledeshi Paki can make your new shirt for 70 cents...  And that's what you buy.



Enjoy stagnation!
Title: Re: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: Anonymous on May 27, 2017, 04:12:17 AM
Minimum Wage Study: Effects of Seattle wage hike modest, may be overshadowed by strong economy



The researchers found that:



-Seattle's lowest-paid workers saw larger-than-usual paychecks in late 2015, but at most, only 25 percent of the observed income gains — a few dollars a week — can be attributed to the higher wage.

-Businesses relying heavily on low-wage staff showed signs of cutting back, though they too benefited from the strong economy. They added jobs at about the same rate as businesses outside the city, but employees' working hours in the city lagged by an average of about one hour per employee per week.

-Even amid a relative boom, Seattle's lowest-wage earners show signs of "lagging behind" a control group drawn from other parts of the state. The employment rate was down about 1 percentage point for workers who earned less than $11 an hour in mid-2014; their average hours declined, and the proportion switching from jobs in the city to elsewhere ticked upward by 2 to 3 percent.

http://www.washington.edu/news/2016/07/25/minimum-wage-study-effects-of-seattle-wage-hike-modest-may-be-overshadowed-by-strong-economy/
Title: Re: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: RW on May 27, 2017, 10:54:43 AM
No surprises there.



People, every day people, having more money to spend, is a GOOD thing.
Title: Re: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: JOE on May 27, 2017, 11:19:34 AM
A higher minimum wage need not be a drag on the economy too soon as seoulbro suggests.



But it should be done very gradually over an extended period of time and not overnight so the business can absorb it.



Also the businesses should be given tax breaks or credits for every increase to offset their costs.



The other factor that high minimum wage advocates don't realize is that everything becomes more expensive. If we add $3 or $4 onto a wage overnight, the business will have to add that cost onto that can of coffee or bottle of milk. Also the employer is likely to cut back and use fewer employees to get the job done. So if he had 6 employees before, now he'll only need 4.



So all these massive 'gains' for the worker may end up being illusory. Given somethin, but something else gets taken away
Title: Re: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: Anonymous on May 27, 2017, 02:10:08 PM
From reading this thread, I think I might be the only one here who has ever worked in a mom and dad owned business in a minimum wage job..



Profit is not the motive, because most owners are barely keeping their heads above water..



They need to provide a good product or service at a fair price or their life's savings and work is for nothing and they go out of business and I'm Seoul's parents know that..



I was a waitress in a Chinese restaurant for five years, both part time and full time briefly..



On Friday and Saturday nights with my tips, I made more money than the owners and I have nothing invested in the business..



If the restaurant closes, I don't lose my house and go into bankruptcy..



I felt guilty about taking any wage at all..



They eventually were forced to close, but an increase in minimum wage like our thoughtless premier is forcing on small business would have put them into bankruptcy faster..



Seoul is right, minimum wage fast food and service jobs are disappearing



What effect will increasing the minimum wage quickly have on these jobs?



I think we will see more Amazon type stores, more order terminals and eventually be like Australia where you pick up our own food and the experience of Seattle seems to confirm that..



Just the two cents of someone who has actually had a minimum wage service job.
Title: Re: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: RW on May 27, 2017, 03:16:43 PM
Once again, minimum wage chases inflation.  If you want that increase to slow down, tackle causes of inflation (like stupid carbon taxes).
Title: Re: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: Anonymous on May 27, 2017, 03:44:36 PM
And more on Seattle's rapid minimum wage increase experiment.



In a region where all low-wage workers, including those in Seattle, have enjoyed access

to more jobs and more hours, Seattle's low-wage workers show some preliminary signs

of lagging behind similar workers in comparison regions.

 The minimum wage appears to have slightly reduced the employment rate of

low-wage workers by about one percentage point. It appears that the Minimum

Wage Ordinance modestly held back Seattle's employment of low-wage workers

relative to the level we could have expected.



The specific effect of the minimum wage alone upon employment seems to be negative.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2017/04/05/seattles-2-9-unemployment-rate-tells-us-nothing-about-the-effects-of-seattles-minimum-wage-rise/#7488b1b168b8



Worth noting that most of Washington state's job growth has been in the skilled twenty five dollar and up range. As predicted the unskilled jobs that pay minimum wage were affected in a slightly negative way. The trend will continue.
Title: Re: An example of why a high minimum wage is counterproductive courtesy of Renee
Post by: Anonymous on May 31, 2017, 12:29:14 PM
Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne's plan to increase minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2019 may come as a welcome surprise to workers across the province, but businesses that already have thin margins may see it as an opportunity to eliminate jobs.



Karl Baldauf, vice president of policy and government relations for the Ontario Chamber of Commerce, said the increase to minimum wage could hurt young workers more than help them.





"Only three years ago the premier's own minimum wage panel found that through research of Canadian examples every time you increase the minimum wage by 10 per cent it has the reverse impact of lowering youth employment by six per cent," he said.



"It's all well and good to hear these kinds of reforms, but unless you're proceeding in a way that's evidence-based, you're making all of us vulnerable including those who are vulnerably employed who you're seeking to help — and that's why we've asked the government to proceed with caution."





Baldauf said there is still time for the government to conduct more independent economic analyses on the major changes to Ontario's workforce before it is introduced this week with second reading in the fall.



"The plan in place is to increase minimum wage by almost 25 per cent in a seven-month timeline. Ask businesses how they're going to prepare for that," he said.



"It's going to put a lot of businesses, especially small businesses with very thin profit margins, in jeopardy — and that's unacceptable. We need to ensure that we are enabling prosperity for all, that's what fairness looks like, and what we're seeing today does not reflect that."

http://globalnews.ca/news/3488559/who-wins-and-who-loses-in-ontarios-decision-to-raise-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour/



I am very skeptical about this. The kind of jobs that pay minimum wage are disappearing. We also know that raising minimum wage does not really put more money into the economy as employers don't spend more on payrolls. They must have productivity gains, ie reduced hours/manpower. Besides, this increase is just too quick. It's an election gimmick from the most unpopular government in the country.
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