Does it still resonate with us today?
How influential had this decade been in shaping our current world?
Or is it just a passing era which has seen its time?
Here's a tune from that decade I rather enjoyed because it has a defiance which marks the spirit of that time
https://youtu.be/ealhxti03pk
I dream of a young Mimi dancing around in the 1960's, with her long hair flowing in the breeze, and a flower in there for some odd reason...
You had to be there...
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Was nothing special.
Quote from: "Chuck Bronson"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Was nothing special.
It had its moments. Sadly, that was pretty much all they were.
I was born in the 60s. By far the best thing that happened back then :laugh:
I've always thought the best thing about the sixties was the number of women who were happy to show me their tits and blow weed with me and fuck me silly.
Guess it depends on your POV.
Quote from: "Peaches"
Guess it depends on your POV.
Well since I was a baby back in the 60s, titties were just for food. I wasn't as able to fully appreciate them the way I did when I got older :laugh:
I was born in 1975, so that decade is a mystery to me. But, it seems that is the decade that gave birth to the feeling of entitlement today.
Quote from: "seoulbro"
I'd disagree. The entitled ones are the post-war baby boomers, roughly 1947-1962 births. Most of the flower children, hippies, etc. were boomers. My generation, the previous one, infused them with a lot of idealism but they were so undisciplined they fucked everything up.
But the entitlement today isn't so much a generational thing. I think it has a lot more moving parts, and I can't really describe some of them.
A lot of mistakes were made in the 60´s which are now costing the americans dearly.
Quote from: "seoulbro"
Do you mean everything post generation x?
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "seoulbro"
Do you mean everything post generation x?
:43(2):
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "seoulbro"
Do you mean everything post generation x?
I wasn't referring to any generation. I am talking about taking advantage of taxpayers.
Quote from: "seoulbro"
That is not true.
The period of 64 to 69 re-defined society, and importantly, set a path towards re-defining the social contract between governments and their people.
A comment was made above that mistakes were made in the 60's. Whatever those "mistakes", they pale in comparison to the catastrophic and howling aberrations the previous generation inflicted on the world, starting with two world wars, a nuclear holocaust, and invading other countries because their political tenets and principles did not match your own ideology. That generation slaughtered millions.
And in 1961, the US President committed its sons to a war in Vietnam that had no basis in reason or virtue. The US commandeered other nations to join them in this battle for "the true path", and they in turn conscripted their men to go forth and die in a jungle that had no influence on their homeland whatsoever.
The youth of the 60's, tired of the old guard, their contraints, demand for total compliance in both culture and governance and their passion for war grew restless. The cultural tsunami led by, of all things, popular music turned into a political earthquake that set the agenda of change we feel even today.
So many shibboleths were challenged...such as women being treated as lesser beings than men or black people being lynched for demanding equality...and dismantled in lieu of fairness and a a more just society for better or in some cases, worse.
But no-one can predict the longer term effects of social change, because humans are startlingly unpredictable.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Quote from: "seoulbro"
birth to the feeling of entitlement today.
That is not true.
The period of 64 to 69 re-defined society, and importantly, set a path towards re-defining the social contract between governments and their people.
A comment was made above that mistakes were made in the 60's. Whatever those "mistakes", they pale in comparison to the catastrophic and howling aberrations the previous generation inflicted on the world, starting with two world wars, a nuclear holocaust, and invading other countries because their political tenets and principles did not match your own ideology. That generation slaughtered millions.
And in 1961, the US President committed its sons to a war in Vietnam that had no basis in reason or virtue. The US commandeered other nations to join them in this battle for "the true path", and they in turn conscripted their men to go forth and die in a jungle that had no influence on their homeland whatsoever.
The youth of the 60's, tired of the old guard, their contraints, demand for total compliance in both culture and governance and their passion for war grew restless. The cultural tsunami led by, of all things, popular music turned into a political earthquake that set the agenda of change we feel even today.
So many shibboleths were challenged...such as women being treated as lesser beings than men or black people being lynched for demanding equality...and dismantled in lieu of fairness and a a more just society for better or in some cases, worse.
But no-one can predict the longer term effects of social change, because humans are startlingly unpredictable.
We are arguing two different things. The growth of government took off in the late sixties. It hasn't slowed down since.
There are a number of problems created by the social changes arising from the 1960's.
However, that statement is valid no matter which era you place at the end of the sentence.
I am not convinced that the huge government bureaucracies and burdensome political class are a product of the 60's. They were there long before 1960, and I suspect they are more a product of the 40's and 50's, with a large period of growth during the war when government departments controlled virtually all aspects of society.
Governments would find it difficult to wage wars without a bureaucracy to manage the masses.
The 150 years since Confederation have witnessed a transition of the federal government from its primary concern with the active economic development of a state grounded in liberal economic principles to an activist role partly aimed at bringing about a more egalitarian state via redistribution. This led to an expansion of the federal government's spending in the 1960's that, in the absence of more concerted fiscal discipline and given the slowdown in economic growth, ultimately was a factor in the debt crisis of the 1990s.
However, there is no connection between the social upheaval and fiscal expenditure.
The 60's revolution was about social change to address inherent injustices in society, not financial inequity.
For the most part, the post war period was a period of economic growth, and almost full employment.
The 60's revolution was far more focussed on irrational wars, social injustices, government control and institutionalised conformity of dress standards and acceptable behaviour. For example, people were turned away from court hearings if their hair was too long...or they were denied employment if they did not wear a dark suit, white shirt and black tie.
Socialist driven resistance and armed uprisings were more a product of the 70's.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
The 60's revolution was about social change to address inherent injustices in society, not financial inequity.
For the most part, the post war period was a period of economic growth, and almost full employment.
The 60's revolution was far more focussed on irrational wars, social injustices, government control and institutionalised conformity of dress standards and acceptable behaviour. For example, people were turned away from court hearings if their hair was too long...or they were denied employment if they did not wear a dark suit, white shirt and black tie.
Socialist driven resistance and armed uprisings were more a product of the 70's.
I am not saying all of the spending programs created in the sixties were bad, but most of the welfare state in Canada was introduced in that decade. They all have huge expensive bureaucracies that are sacred cows to those on the left and cowardly conservatives.
The Monkeys
The Beatles
Neil Diamond
Me
Quote from: "Superchecker"
The Beatles
Neil Diamond
Me
Do you sing Superchecker?
:laugh:
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "Superchecker"
The Beatles
Neil Diamond
Me
Do you sing Superchecker?
:laugh:
Not professionally :laugh3:
Quote from: "Superchecker"
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "Superchecker"
The Beatles
Neil Diamond
Me
Do you sing Superchecker?
:laugh:
Not professionally :laugh3:
We should got to karaoke together some time.
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "Superchecker"
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "Superchecker"
The Beatles
Neil Diamond
Me
Do you sing Superchecker?
:laugh:
Not professionally :laugh3:
We should got to karaoke together some time.
Quote from: "Superchecker"
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "Superchecker"
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "Superchecker"
The Beatles
Neil Diamond
Me
Do you sing Superchecker?
:laugh:
Not professionally :laugh3:
We should got to karaoke together some time.
Tougher Than the Rest by Bruce Springsteen.
Quote from: "seoulbro"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
The 60's revolution was about social change to address inherent injustices in society, not financial inequity.
For the most part, the post war period was a period of economic growth, and almost full employment.
The 60's revolution was far more focussed on irrational wars, social injustices, government control and institutionalised conformity of dress standards and acceptable behaviour. For example, people were turned away from court hearings if their hair was too long...or they were denied employment if they did not wear a dark suit, white shirt and black tie.
Socialist driven resistance and armed uprisings were more a product of the 70's.
I am not saying all of the spending programs created in the sixties were bad, but most of the welfare state in Canada was introduced in that decade. They all have huge expensive bureaucracies that are sacred cows to those on the left and cowardly conservatives.
The welfare State was created in Britain long before 1960.
In fact, handing out welfare, or providing "alms to the poor" was known in medieval times, usually administered by the great Catholic monasteries before Henry began the program of Church reform that saw the end of Catholicism in Britain.
Social welfare programs did not arise as a result of the 60's. At the risk of being repetitive, the upheaval and turbulence was more about social change than fiscal reform. Whilst it cannot be denied that "socialism" was a key player, we must be careful not to equate ALL socialism with tyranny and ruin. Creating a more equal, fairer and just society is not a bad thing. And the post war period up until the 60's was far from fair, equal or just, with it's arrogant dictatorial excess peaking when it conscripted young men to go to war in a country no-one knew anything about, purportedly to halt the advance of communism - the flawed and irrational "Domino Theory" that underpinned America's foreign policy.
This disgrace alone was enough to ignite rage and realisation in western countries; that our governments acted as if they were gods, and sending people to die was rational and right.
The 60's revolution was ignited by popular culture that rejected the stifled and benign 50's conformity, and once the youth realised it had the power to make real changes to our world, they realised that this could be converted into political power that saw the end of the Vietnam War, equal rights and pay for women and non-whites, an end to dictatorial government policies, a more rational justice system, and a recognition of the rights of the individual to choose their own lifestyle which rejected the choking constraints of "normality".
This political power eventually gave the far left courage to become more militant and aggressive in implementing socialism...but this became more a phenomenon of the 70's.
Most of Canada's social welfare programs were created in the sixties.Welfare state, is a term that was apparently first used in the English language in 1941 in a book written by William Temple, Archbishop of York, England. For many years after, postwar British society was frequently characterized (often pejoratively) as a "welfare state," but by the 1960s the term commonly denoted an industrial capitalist society in which state power was "deliberately used (through politics and administration) in an effort to modify the play of market forces." For Asa Briggs, the author of this definition in an article appearing in The Welfare State (1967), there are three types of welfare state activities: provision of minimum income, provision for the reduction of economic insecurity resulting from such "contingencies" as sickness, old age and unemployment, and provision to all members of society of a range of social services. Under this definition, Canada became a welfare state after the passage of the social welfare reforms of the 1960s.
Not being a scholar of Canadian socio-political history, I must take your word.
However, tying that to the social revolution of the 60's is, in my view, erroneous.
The revolution was a cultural phenomenon, not a political one. That came later, as I claim above. Not ALL initiatives and government policies can be attributed to the social changes that were occurring during that period. The major political angst was directed at the Vietnam War and verified social, rather than economical injustices. Another cause for street protests was South Africa's apartheid, and these protests led to most western governments isolating South Africa and putting embargoes on trade, travel and political recognition.
Most civil disruption was directed at war and repression, not demands for welfare.
I don't have a problem with a social safety net. But, the huge bureaucracies they create in this country are pure money wasters.
Bureaucracies are the tool of corrupt governments.
It provides jobs for many who would be unemployable in a private, competitive market environment, and many bureaucracies exist merely to assist governments steal your money for NO net benefit to the community.
As an example, registering cars and renewing drivers licences. Collecting duties, tariffs and other imposts. Collecting taxes. Issuing licences and permits for normal activities such as camping, parking or indeed accessing government services.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
As an example, registering cars and renewing drivers licences. Collecting duties, tariffs and other imposts. Collecting taxes. Issuing licences and permits for normal activities such as camping, parking or indeed accessing government services.
Thanks.
:001_rolleyes:
You misread my comment. The fact that many public servants are incompetent and lack initiative does not mean that ALL do.
Any public servant reading this...please don't take it personally. I am generalising from my own experience in the Australian Taxation Office, where I believe 20% of the workforce could have been removed with no net loss of operating efficiency.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Any public servant reading this...please don't take it personally. I am generalising from my own experience in the Australian Taxation Office, where I believe 20% of the workforce could have been removed with no net loss of operating efficiency.
While we are on that subject, I read that nurses in my province spend more than half their time at work, not helping patients.
Same as all health services.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
It provides jobs for many who would be unemployable in a private, competitive market environment, and many bureaucracies exist merely to assist governments steal your money for NO net benefit to the community.
As an example, registering cars and renewing drivers licences. Collecting duties, tariffs and other imposts. Collecting taxes. Issuing licences and permits for normal activities such as camping, parking or indeed accessing government services.
And yet, all these taxes and licenses are enacted by the legislature as statutes. Surely you don't question their validity?
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Any public servant reading this...please don't take it personally. I am generalising from my own experience in the Australian Taxation Office, where I believe 20% of the workforce could have been removed with no net loss of operating efficiency.
While we are on that subject, I read that nurses in my province spend more than half their time at work, not helping patients.
This is not just a problem in nursing. It's also a problem here in human services generally, in education especially at the elementary and secondary levels, and even to a degree in the private sector (particularly if there is a government contract involved.) It would make a good topic in its own right, because there's more than one reason for it.
Quote from: "Peaches"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
It provides jobs for many who would be unemployable in a private, competitive market environment, and many bureaucracies exist merely to assist governments steal your money for NO net benefit to the community.
As an example, registering cars and renewing drivers licences. Collecting duties, tariffs and other imposts. Collecting taxes. Issuing licences and permits for normal activities such as camping, parking or indeed accessing government services.
And yet, all these taxes and licenses are enacted by the legislature as statutes. Surely you don't question their validity?
Ya Bricktop thinks big government can spend his money more prudently than he can. In fact, he wishes they would extort more money from him and his family.
Quote from: "Peaches"
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Any public servant reading this...please don't take it personally. I am generalising from my own experience in the Australian Taxation Office, where I believe 20% of the workforce could have been removed with no net loss of operating efficiency.
While we are on that subject, I read that nurses in my province spend more than half their time at work, not helping patients.
This is not just a problem in nursing. It's also a problem here in human services generally, in education especially at the elementary and secondary levels, and even to a degree in the private sector (particularly if there is a government contract involved.) It would make a good topic in its own right,
No, actually there isn't..
In our public health care system we are told more is always better..
So we have more nurses not working in actual health care delivery.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Quote from: "seoulbro"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
The 60's revolution was about social change to address inherent injustices in society, not financial inequity.
For the most part, the post war period was a period of economic growth, and almost full employment.
The 60's revolution was far more focussed on irrational wars, social injustices, government control and institutionalised conformity of dress standards and acceptable behaviour. For example, people were turned away from court hearings if their hair was too long...or they were denied employment if they did not wear a dark suit, white shirt and black tie.
Socialist driven resistance and armed uprisings were more a product of the 70's.
I am not saying all of the spending programs created in the sixties were bad, but most of the welfare state in Canada was introduced in that decade. They all have huge expensive bureaucracies that are sacred cows to those on the left and cowardly conservatives.
The welfare State was created in Britain long before 1960.
In fact, handing out welfare, or providing "alms to the poor" was known in medieval times, usually administered by the great Catholic monasteries before Henry began the program of Church reform that saw the end of Catholicism in Britain.
Social welfare programs did not arise as a result of the 60's. At the risk of being repetitive, the upheaval and turbulence was more about social change than fiscal reform. Whilst it cannot be denied that "socialism" was a key player, we must be careful not to equate ALL socialism with tyranny and ruin. Creating a more equal, fairer and just society is not a bad thing. And the post war period up until the 60's was far from fair, equal or just, with it's arrogant dictatorial excess peaking when it conscripted young men to go to war in a country no-one knew anything about, purportedly to halt the advance of communism - the flawed and irrational "Domino Theory" that underpinned America's foreign policy.
This disgrace alone was enough to ignite rage and realisation in western countries; that our governments acted as if they were gods, and sending people to die was rational and right.
The 60's revolution was ignited by popular culture that rejected the stifled and benign 50's conformity, and once the youth realised it had the power to make real changes to our world, they realised that this could be converted into political power that saw the end of the Vietnam War, equal rights and pay for women and non-whites, an end to dictatorial government policies, a more rational justice system, and a recognition of the rights of the individual to choose their own lifestyle which rejected the choking constraints of "normality".
This political power eventually gave the far left courage to become more militant and aggressive in implementing socialism...but this became more a phenomenon of the 70's.
I was very young then, but even I remember that there was a huge and dramatic cultural shift during the 1960s which ultimately transformed & shaped the world we live today for better or worse which there was no going back. It's almost as if Western society went from the 19th century to the 20th overnight.
I remember the people born before 1945 all seemed like they belonged to a completely different century.
I think 1960 was the true start of the 20th although there had been 'false starts' in an attempt to create one such as the roaring 20s which ultimately failed & led to economic collapse, world peace and the Second World War.
Quote from: "seoulbro"
You are correct in your analysis of how Canada changed during the 1960s.
Prior to 1960, Canada was largely White, conservative, religious and heavily controlled by the Protestant & Catholic Churches in both English & French Canada.
The 1960s was a real game changer & greatly diminished the power of these institutions.
Additionally, the influx of American 'political refugees' & New Deal Democrats migrating/escaping the Communist witch hunts in the 1950s and the Vietnam War in the sixties had an impact on the social and political institutions in Canada. As a result, Canada became more 'liberal' because of them. They became lawyers and ran for political offices. Thats a large reason why a country like Australia is today more politically and socially conservative than Canada today. Other influences were Leftist labour party members from the UK immigrating to Canada which shaped government policies here too.
Australia was not as influenced by them because it didnt receive such an influx of these outside liberal social thinkers as Canada did. Otherwise Canada would be more like Australia is today.
Quote from: "Peaches"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
It provides jobs for many who would be unemployable in a private, competitive market environment, and many bureaucracies exist merely to assist governments steal your money for NO net benefit to the community.
As an example, registering cars and renewing drivers licences. Collecting duties, tariffs and other imposts. Collecting taxes. Issuing licences and permits for normal activities such as camping, parking or indeed accessing government services.
And yet, all these taxes and licenses are enacted by the legislature as statutes. Surely you don't question their validity?
Not at all. The fact that I regard them as unconscionable does not mean I have a right to disobey them. It is an essential element of a democratic system of governance, even one as perverted as ours, that we accept and recognise the rule of law. The fact that I disagree with a law does not entitle me to disobey it, as this again is the road to anarchy.
However, even though I believe our system of government is broken, I still accept the rule of law. There has to be a better way, but violence and civil insurrection takes us nowhere but chaos.
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "Peaches"
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Any public servant reading this...please don't take it personally. I am generalising from my own experience in the Australian Taxation Office, where I believe 20% of the workforce could have been removed with no net loss of operating efficiency.
While we are on that subject, I read that nurses in my province spend more than half their time at work, not helping patients.
This is not just a problem in nursing. It's also a problem here in human services generally, in education especially at the elementary and secondary levels, and even to a degree in the private sector (particularly if there is a government contract involved.) It would make a good topic in its own right,
No, actually there isn't..
In our public health care system we are told more is always better..
So we have more nurses not working in actual health care delivery.
Oh, I see. I'm afraid I misunderstood your comment. And I agree with your point -- in fact, I have two friends in health care who work for the state (an MD and an RN) both of whom work behind a desk doing paperwork for the state ABOUT health care, but who never see an actual patient.
But the lens I was looking through, sleepy as I was, is still clear to me this morning. Thus I see (as a medical patient) that when I see my "primary" doctor the appointment might take half an hour, but he will spend a goodly portion of that time looking at a monitor and typing on a keyboard. And from my experience in human services, I know that there is a similar paperwork load. And at the other end of all that data creation are the state employees, insurance company employees, and sometimes also lawyers, whose jobs begin and end with that data.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Quote from: "Peaches"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
It provides jobs for many who would be unemployable in a private, competitive market environment, and many bureaucracies exist merely to assist governments steal your money for NO net benefit to the community.
As an example, registering cars and renewing drivers licences. Collecting duties, tariffs and other imposts. Collecting taxes. Issuing licences and permits for normal activities such as camping, parking or indeed accessing government services.
And yet, all these taxes and licenses are enacted by the legislature as statutes. Surely you don't question their validity?
Not at all. The fact that I regard them as unconscionable does not mean I have a right to disobey them. It is an essential element of a democratic system of governance, even one as perverted as ours, that we accept and recognise the rule of law. The fact that I disagree with a law does not entitle me to disobey it, as this again is [size=150]
However, even though I believe our system of government is broken, I still accept the rule of law. There has to be a better way, but violence and civil insurrection takes us nowhere but chaos.
As Joe has pointed out above, you lot Down Under are somewhat more conservative in style than Canadians or Yankees. But despite this generality, I find that in the BC population you yourself are in many respects "less hidebound" by this conservative bent than many of the Canadian posters.
Still, you seem to have a knee-jerk abhorrence of anything that might hint of anarchy, and since you and I are debating that idea in another thread I'll not go further with it here. I might end up wanting to quote you again from here, on that other thread.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Quote from: "Peaches"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
It provides jobs for many who would be unemployable in a private, competitive market environment, and many bureaucracies exist merely to assist governments steal your money for NO net benefit to the community.
As an example, registering cars and renewing drivers licences. Collecting duties, tariffs and other imposts. Collecting taxes. Issuing licences and permits for normal activities such as camping, parking or indeed accessing government services.
And yet, all these taxes and licenses are enacted by the legislature as statutes. Surely you don't question their validity?
Not at all. The fact that I regard them as unconscionable does not mean I have a right to disobey them. It is an essential element of a democratic system of governance, even one as perverted as ours, that we accept and recognise the rule of law. The fact that I disagree with a law does not entitle me to disobey it, as this again is the road to anarchy.
However, even though I believe our system of government is broken, I still accept the rule of law. There has to be a better way, but violence and civil insurrection takes us nowhere but chaos.
If a government brings in unjust taxation, like our carbon tax, replace them in the next election.
Its a fair point...yet history tells us that laws, once enacted, are more likely to remain than be repealed.
This is because the major parties have a "nod and wink" relationship, which essentially says that whilst in government, one side passes a law and the other side will leave it in place. This is ostensibly to prevent laws changing after each election, and creating a chaos of inconsistency, unreliability and total confusion.
Another reason democracy is a failed system.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
This is because the major parties have a "nod and wink" relationship, which essentially says that whilst in government, one side passes a law and the other side will leave it in place. This is ostensibly to prevent laws changing after each election, and creating a chaos of inconsistency, unreliability and total confusion.
Another reason democracy is a failed system.
Our provincial government will almost certainly be defeated in less than one year..
The Conservatives who will likely form the next government have said repealing the carbon tax is priority one..
I hope they are serious.
Our Conservative government repealed the Carbon Tax here in 2014.
It was one of those rare cases of repealing legislation from a previous government...but there were mitigating circumstances.
The previous leftist Government, when in opposition during an election campaign declared unequivocally that if elected, they would NOT impose a carbon tax. They won.
Then, to gain the support of the Greens in the Senate to ensure legislation passed unhindered, they reneged. They imposed a carbon tax.
This raised our ire, and we remembered at the next election, when the conservatives promised to repeal it during the election campaign, and thus won back Government.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
It was one of those rare cases of repealing legislation from a previous government...but there were mitigating circumstances.
The previous leftist Government, when in opposition during an election campaign declared unequivocally that if elected, they would NOT impose a carbon tax. They won.
Then, to gain the support of the Greens in the Senate to ensure legislation passed unhindered, they reneged. They imposed a carbon tax.
This raised our ire, and we remembered at the next election, when the conservatives promised to repeal it during the election campaign, and thus won back Government.
Our leftist provincial NDP government didn't mention a carbon tax in their platform, but implemented a rather steep one anyway.
This is deception, and should be outlawed.
We must STOP this mentality of political parties which says "You voted for us, so you support ANYTHING we do".
Quote from: "Bricktop"
We must STOP this mentality of political parties which says "You voted for us, so you support ANYTHING we do".
Justin Trudeau never campaigned on a carbon tax, but he is prepared to spend our money taking provinces to court to force a fifty dollar per tonne carbon price on every province even though many don't want anything to do with it.
This is the major flaw of democracy. It has to be stopped.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
He won 39.5 per cent of the vote, so he feels he can go against the will of the people.
Its long, but worth the time it takes to drink your next tea or coffee.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TABVtTnBQA8
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
We must STOP this mentality of political parties which says "You voted for us, so you support ANYTHING we do".
Justin Trudeau never campaigned on a carbon tax, but he is prepared to spend our money taking provinces to court to force a fifty dollar per tonne carbon price on every province even though many don't want anything to do with it.
But, he gave ten million bucks to a convicted terrorist because he wanted to save taxpayers money if the government lost in court. :crazy:
Democracy is a major flaw
I would propose that democracy as a system is not flawed.
It has been rendered a flawed system by political corruption at all levels.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
It has been rendered a flawed system by political corruption at all levels.
If a system can't effectively thwart political corruption, it's therefore flawed.
Quote from: "Dinky Dianna"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
It has been rendered a flawed system by political corruption at all levels.
If a system can't effectively thwart political corruption, it's therefore flawed.
In their private correspondence Jefferson and Adams more or less agreed that a democratic republic was only good for twenty years or so... because in that length of time the legislators would figure out how to vote themselves money from the public purse.
Quote from: "Peaches"
Quote from: "Dinky Dianna"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
It has been rendered a flawed system by political corruption at all levels.
If a system can't effectively thwart political corruption, it's therefore flawed.
In their private correspondence Jefferson and Adams more or less agreed that a democratic republic was only good for twenty years or so... because in that length of time the legislators would figure out how to vote themselves money from the public purse.
Can't disagree with that sentiment.
I think I would substitute the word "money" for "power"...with a subsection of "money" implicit.
Could be interesting fact,
but could we please see "
I cannot help but wonder why Americans believe that all worldly knowledge and wisdom was possessed only by people (males) who lived in the 18th and 19th century...and that said knowledge and wisdom would somehow accommodate the evolution of human society into the 21st.
They must have been amazing fellows.
They were definitely inspired and thoughtful sorts who accurately assessed the past and plotted the best they could for the future, at least as a deliberating group. A noble consensus.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
They must have been amazing fellows.
I don't know any Americans who believe this.
Well, you keep quoting them.
Your judiciary maintains obeisance to a Constitution written hundreds of years ago.
You have monuments and cities named after them.
You make movies about them, worshipping their every word.
Politicians keep citing them.
Some American must believe this.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Your judiciary maintains obeisance to a Constitution written hundreds of years ago.
You have monuments and cities named after them.
You make movies about them, worshipping their every word.
Politicians keep citing them.
Some American must believe this.
Are you familiar with the Error of Composition Fallacy?
I am.
Is there a point to your question?
Quote from: "Dinky Dianna"
Justine's handlers know that and use it to their advantage.
Quote from: "Herman"
Quote from: "Dinky Dianna"
Justine's handlers know that and use it to their advantage.
They don't care about average people.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Is there a point to your question?
You seem to be making several different points in your post and addressing them all to me, but I don't see that most of them are about me at all.
Quote from: "Peaches"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Is there a point to your question?
You seem to be making several different points in your post and addressing them all to me, but I don't see that most of them are about me at all.
You seem to be, no you are deflecting because you can't answer a simple frickin question. And the reason is you are a typical lying progtard faggot and a coward.
Quote from: "Peaches"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Is there a point to your question?
You seem to be making several different points in your post and addressing them all to me, but I don't see that most of them are about me at all.
I'm merely providing factual evidence that America deifies its politicians, presumably because it believes they are omnipotent and wise beyond lesser humans.
Lincoln started a civil war, setting Americans against Americans.
Roosevelt sat in his wheelchair while Europe burned.
Truman nuked Japan without due cause.
Kennedy sent boys to Vietnam to die for a flawed policy.
Nixon and Clinton both flat out lied.
G W Bush is a war criminal.
And now you have Trump.
I'm not seeing a history and tradition of wisdom and nobility there.
That is my point. Prove me wrong.
Lincoln was a real pos. Numerous Southern delegations were sent to DC prior to the Civil War with the express intent to have their legitimate economic grievances addressed. He refused to meet all of them then cried foul when they exercised their right to secede from the Union.
He imprisoned heaps of journalists and agreed to scorched earth urban warfare.
And when it came to slavery, Lincoln issued a hollow proclamation freeing the economic assets underpinning the Southern economy but not for the slaves in border Union states.
That is my point. Prove me wrong.
:MG_216:
I'd suggest that someone is making quite a deal of my mentioning the second and third presidents in what was actually a throwaway post. You haven't proven anything about "Americans" as a class, or even anything about me. Thus your error of generalization fails. By listing past presidents (several of whom are not from the 18th & 19th centuries) and knocking their legacies you continue the error and add a goalpost move or two. There is no need for me to prove anything here.
:einsteinsmiley3f:
"Blessed are those who run around in circles, for they shall be known as Wheels." (John the Baptist)
Quote from: "Peaches"
That's OK. That's my job. And I do it rather well, I'm sure you'll agree.
As you like to lean on the ramblings of others...
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. Mark Twain
Quote from: "Bricktop"
They must have been amazing fellows.
The US is in need of a massive overhaul of its political institutions and its constitution.
Otherwise theyre gonna wnd up with social unrest & upheaval in the coming decades.
Sticking with an archaic centuries old constitutional formula won't work in the long run.
It needs to grow up, and stop clinging to a romanticised, idealised past that is more a product of Hollywood than historical fact.
It needs to stop pretending it possesses European sophistication and intellectualism.
It needs to embrace the deep flaws in its governance.
And it desperately needs a statesman or woman who can unify a crumbling and disparate society under a single national identity. In that need, it has much in common with most of the western world.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
It needs to stop pretending it possesses European sophistication and intellectualism.
It needs to embrace the deep flaws in its governance.
And it desperately needs a statesman or woman who can unify a crumbling and disparate society under a single national identity. In that need, it has much in common with most of the western world.
A glaring flaw of their system is a winner take all mentality which of course can only lead to monopolization of power and social unrest. And of course excessive concentration of wealth. All these multibillionaires yet still no basic universal healthcare for it's citizens?
Or that judges can fraternize with politicians and still be appointed to the bench for life when they should have to be voted on And run for political office.
Or that in a presidential election a candidate can take an entire stste' s electoral voted with just 50.001% of the vote while his opponent has 49.999% of the vote and ends up with nothing.
There's no balance which will only result in a system eventually tearing itself apart
Quote from: "JOE"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
They must have been amazing fellows.
The US is in need of a massive overhaul of its political institutions and its constitution.
Otherwise theyre gonna wnd up with social unrest & upheaval in the coming decades.
Sticking with an archaic centuries old constitutional formula won't work in the long run.
Canada and the rest of the West needs the same thing and for the same reasons. The West cannot continue the way they are going and expect their way of life will survive.
Amen.
And pumpkins should be declared a noxious weed.
Quote from: "JOE"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
They must have been amazing fellows.
The US is in need of a massive overhaul of its political institutions and its constitution.
Otherwise theyre gonna wnd up with social unrest & upheaval in the coming decades.
Sticking with an archaic centuries old constitutional formula won't work in the long run.
we have social unrest because the left are generally assholes who think not liking the results of an election entitles them to riot, threaten, beat people, try to kill people etc. they disagree with.
the answer is they need to be held accountable (in two ways)
1. by the judicial system-- for example antifa assholes need to go to prison instead of being arrested one day and set free the next
2. at the ballot box--the people need to punish this behavior, the democrat party should be punished by the voters for acting like such assholes.
And we need to drastically roll back immigration.
Do those two things and we will be just fine, throw in an unbiased media and it would be even better.
Your chances of ANY of those things occurring whilst fragmented into so many self-interested tribes is zero.
I am staggered by, for example, the membership of the Supreme Court. Divided by politics. That is insane!!! No other country selects politically expedient judges so blatantly as the US, and it is a MAJOR source of your dilemma.
Judges should be appointed by Congress, after being nominated by your AG, not the President. And not based on politics.
This division flows through every legal element of your nation. Courts are political agents. It's madness.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
No we need to tell the left to go to hell when the left says our past is all slavery and evil white people. We have built one of the greatest nations on the earth,. its time to tell those who put shame on us to get lost.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
More like european pretentiousness. I would stack our best minds against Europe's anytime. Besides those European sophisticates are letting Muslims take over and the left destroy free speech. They are certainly nothing to emulate, they are in worse shape than we are.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Nope ours is a great system of governance, imitated the world over. No other constitution defends free speech more than ours does. Our constitution has been the basis for more constitutions than any other country's.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Not going to happen. the left has declared war. Either they will be thwarted, or they will win, or its civil war. There will be no unity.
Quote from: "Wazzzup"
No we need to tell the left to go to hell when the left says our past is all slavery and evil white people. We have built one of the greatest nations on the earth,. its time to tell those who put shame on us to get lost.
By what criterion and subjective measures do you regard yourself as a great nation? If you've travelled the world, you would learn that there is nothing intrinsically superior about the US over other nations. And that is why the world rolls its eyes up whenever you make these claims. You can claim your country has achieved much, but you have to accept that your country has committed some grave acts as well. Because you put a man on the moon, it does not follow that you have the right to invade Iraq.
Quote from: "Wazzzup"
More like european pretentiousness. I would stack our best minds against Europe's anytime. Besides those European sophisticates are letting Muslims take over and the left destroy free speech. They are certainly nothing to emulate, they are in worse shape than we are.
I think you'll find that there is little difference between Europe and the US. Where they are flooded with arabs and Africans, you are flooded with Mexicans. What we call acts of terror in Europe pale in comparison to the criminal acts of Mexican and African American gangs in the US. And that is small fry compared to the thousands slaughtered by gunfire in the US. How about the Oklahoma bombing? Was that carried out by muslims. You have your own carnage to deal with...and you're losing the fight.
Quote from: "Wazzzup"
Nope ours is a great system of governance, imitated the world over. No other constitution defends free speech more than ours does. Our constitution has been the basis for more constitutions than any other country's.
Firstly, YOUR Constitution is largely based on British and French philosophers, and the only thing that distinguished it from those Constitutions was that the American version created a confederation of States, whereas those other nations did not. How is that working out for you vis a vis the "Sanctuary States", and the various State legislatures defying Federal Law. Your country is relatively young, and most of Europe's constitutions were well established. Most of the British empire followed the British model. I know of no country that has mimicked the US model. The similarities either pre-existed, or were based on European tenets. That does not make them superior, but nor is your statement valid.
//https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution
Any observer looking at your current events, vis a vis the Mueller investigation, the Clinton corruption scandal, the attempted coup by the left against Trump, the FBI anti-Trump conspiracy and many other examples would be hard pressed to judge your system of governance "great". Indeed, many Chinese who oppose their Communist government begrudgingly admit its better than the US turmoil.
Quote from: "Wazzzup"
Not going to happen. the left has declared war. Either they will be thwarted, or they will win, or its civil war. There will be no unity.
The US has fought a war against itself before. I have no doubt it has the capability to do so again, but this time nothing but a smoking ruin will remain.
I know I bash the US constantly...but the fact is the America is killing itself, and that does the world no good. If American's at least took notice of what the rest of the world sees, and realises that many of its myths and mistruths are harming them, then real change may evolve.
As it is, with its distorted self image, its race to chaos and destruction runs ever faster.
Quote
I didn't say it was greater than all others. I said it was great. if you look up best places to lives its always in the top ten. I know you don;t like Americans who say "we're the greatest country" but how are you any better than they are with your constant "Australia is superior to America" mantra?
Quote
I didn't support that war BTW. But There was nothing immoral about Iraq. Saddam hussein was a mass murdering POS who deserved to be taken out. The problem is younger Bush didn't understand what his father did, that leaving saddam in there provided stability and if he were taken ou,t it would create a power vacuum, which it did.
Quote
No that's not really correct because the level of non terrorist crimes committed by african and ME immigrants are high as well. But again who is to blame? the open borders globalist left in both instances.
Quote
Argggh. I've already explained to you dozens of times why the US has higher rates of murder than most western countries. Primarily because of Blacks who commit over half the murders in the entire US even though they are only 12% of it, Hispanics commit murder two to three times the rate whites do. if you were to compare white only rates you would find them more or less equally low with places like canada.
Quote
It created many unique things at the time like separation of church and state. protecting religious liberty. That people should have free speech. Some of these concepts were new and some others had not been codified yet. they have been imitated around the world.
Quote
I think in the old days if a politician created a "sanctuary city" they would have immediately been charged with aiding and abetting criminal behavior. That is what should be done. But the courage is not there. Once again your point is against the left not America., somehow you just never seem to realize that.
Quote
You're talking about the LEFT in America and the crap they are trying to pull, not the system. it could all happen anywhere all you need is leftist zealots.
Quote
America is not killing itself. The American left is killing america (and western europe). There are many people in America doing what they can to fight against what the left is doing, bashing them= entire country doesn't help anything. realize who the enemy is. most others here get it. You are on your way, but you still don't see it.
Dinesh D'souza, an indian Immigrant, who i think may well be the smartest person in America, explains it well in this interview on his movie "Death of a nation: can we save America again" (first two and a half minutes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIuogiVy33o&feature=youtu.be
Bottom line Lump, US presidents have too much power especially when the clearly don't have enough votes to justify a majority mandate which is essentially absolute power.
Ie, Trump should have been forced into a coalition with a party such as the Libertarians and Gary Johnson as his Vice President since he received fewer votes than his opponent. This would be a similar setup as Britain where a minority Prime Minister was forced into a coalition with a Northern Ireland party.
sigh
I have to be brutally honest, Joe. You do better when talking about your imaginary friends
Quote from: "cc"
I have to be brutally honest, Joe. You do better when talking about your imaginary friends
In the 2016 election, Donald Trump received almost 3,000,000 votes fewer than or over 2% less than Hillary Clinton:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016
That s not fiction, cc. I didnt make it up. Its a fact.
Like many others, i have a difficult time accepting Trump as a legitimate president because he simply did not have the numbers to govern with a majority mandate.
Quote from: "cc"
I have to be brutally honest, Joe. You do better when talking about your imaginary friends
yep as usual Joe hasn't got the first clue what he is talking about.
trump is not the problem, its the people who are trying to prevent him from doing his job who are the problem.
Quote from: "JOE"
from illegal aliens and other fraud.
Quote
You're Joe, nobody cares what you accept. he won according to the rules, that's all that matters. deal with it.
He won HUGE playing by the rules
A football team does not get the trophy for yards gained or passes comleted
It gets the trophy for points scored according to the point structure
Again, Joe needs to stop crying over "imagined" wrongs ... stick with his imaginary friends ... and leave the real stuff to real people
Quote from: "Wazzzup"
Quote from: "JOE"
from illegal aliens and other fraud.
Most of the world doesn't realize this about the USA..
I would imagine most Americans don't know about internal voter fraud..
And yet there's a probe into Russia collusion over election meddling??
How can the US congress ignore this?
Quote from: "Wazzzup"
America is not killing itself. The American left is killing america (and western europe).
I take your point...but even leftists are intrinsically American. If they don't like your country, what does that say?
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Quote from: "Wazzzup"
America is not killing itself. The American left is killing america (and western europe).
I take your point...but even leftists are intrinsically American. If they don't like your country, what does that say?
Australian leftists don't like your country's European heritage. They want to wipe the slate clean and start again. It's the same with Canadian progs.
Ours are no different to any other western white-hating whites. A little less shrill and violent, perhaps, but just as ignorant and stupid.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
There you go. White-hating white progs are the same disturbed bunch in every country they infest.
I think so. Monkey see, monkey do.
Quote from: "Fashionista"
Quote from: "Wazzzup"
Quote from: "JOE"
from illegal aliens and other fraud.
Most of the world doesn't realize this about the USA..
I would imagine most Americans don't know about internal voter fraud..
And yet there's a probe into Russia collusion over election meddling??
How can the US congress ignore this?
Wazzup/Lump has never cited credible sources to prove that voter fraud had occurred where Hillary Clinton's votes were cast by illegal immigrants.
He seems to wish it were true but has never proven it.
If he can I might change my mind.
But til then I will accept the official results
Quote from: "JOE"
Wazzup/Lump has never cited credible sources to prove that voter fraud had occurred where Hillary Clinton's votes were cast by illegal immigrants.
We do know there millions more people registered to vote than there are eligible voters. We know illegal aliens voted.
Like the owner said, why are dems and their media minions sweeping mass voter fraud under the carpet. It's really not that hard to figure out why they deny and don't want an investigation into it.
Records: Too many votes in 37% of Detroit's precincts
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/12/records-many-votes-detroits-precincts/9536331
U.S. Has 3.5 Million More Registered Voters Than Live Adults — A Red Flag For Electoral Fraud
https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/u-s-has-3-5-million-more-registered-voters-than-live-adults-a-red-flag-for-electoral-fraud/
Ghost Voters
At least 3.5 million more people are on U.S. election rolls than are eligible to vote
https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/08/election-fraud-registered-voters-outnumber-eligible-voters-462-counties/
Quote
The group says the number of registered voters was between 102 percent and 144 percent higher than the actual number of people of voting age, depending on the county.
It broke down its findings by county like this: "Imperial (102 percent), Lassen (102 percent), Los Angeles (112 percent), Monterey (104 percent), San Diego (138 percent), San Francisco (114 percent), San Mateo (111 percent), Santa Cruz (109 percent), Solano (111 percent), Stanislaus (102 percent), and Yolo (110 percent)
https://www.wmar2news.com/newsy/11-california-counties-might-have-more-registered-voters-than-eligible
Clinton could have received 800,000 votes from noncitizens
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/26/hillary-clinton-received-800000-votes-from-nonciti/
Soon the dementocrats will be able to win elections permanently without voter fraud.
Not in my country...nor yours, I suspect.
America's problems are not OUR problems.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
America's problems are not OUR problems.
Trudeau would like to bring in more people through refugee resettlement than through the points based immigration system. Same as the dementocrats and establishment GOP want to to do in the US through open borders.
Quote from: "Herman"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
America's problems are not OUR problems.
Trudeau would like to bring in more people through refugee resettlement than through the points based immigration system. Same as the dementocrats and establishment GOP want to to do in the US through open borders.
yep we are all at risk.
Its not hard at all to make a mess with immigration whether a steady invasion or a massive influx like Merkel pulled in Germany. Things could be going well in someone's country, and then bam, somebody pulls a merkel, and you're screwed. They also can always take your rights away. Speech may not have technically been free in the UK and Germany but there weren't people hunting down thought criminals, and now there are.
Anybody who thinks because everything is fine now so it always will be, may well end up finding out different in a big hurry.
People said the titanic was unsinkable, they were wrong.
Quote from: "Wazzzup"
The people were told that it was unsinkable, and they seemed to believe the 'experts'...
They found out the real truth when they were dying from hypothermia in ice cold water...
Quote from: "Herman"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
America's problems are not OUR problems.
Trudeau would like to bring in more people through refugee resettlement than through the points based immigration system. Same as the dementocrats and establishment GOP want to to do in the US through open borders.
That bozo is destroying Canada, then.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Quote from: "Herman"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
America's problems are not OUR problems.
Trudeau would like to bring in more people through refugee resettlement than through the points based immigration system. Same as the dementocrats and establishment GOP want to to do in the US through open borders.
That bozo is destroying Canada, then.
He's still popular in certain circles.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Quote from: "Herman"
Quote from: "Bricktop"
America's problems are not OUR problems.
Trudeau would like to bring in more people through refugee resettlement than through the points based immigration system. Same as the dementocrats and establishment GOP want to to do in the US through open borders.
That bozo is destroying Canada, then.
On many fronts. He is a chip off the old block.
Yes, I remember his old man.
Unbelievable that he got voted in so many times.
He doesn't have my vote next year.
Apparently that won't matter, because other people will make sure he stays in power.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
Unbelievable that he got voted in so many times.
PET, or Pierre Elliot Trudeau was pm from 68-79 and 80 -84. He really fucked this country over. It took fifteen years to recover from his destructive regime. The prodigal son will leave a mess for the next government or two as well.
Quote from: "iron horse jockey"
Quote from: "JOE"
Wazzup/Lump has never cited credible sources to prove that voter fraud had occurred where Hillary Clinton's votes were cast by illegal immigrants.
We do know there millions more people registered to vote than there are eligible voters. We know illegal aliens voted.
Like the owner said, why are dems and their media minions sweeping mass voter fraud under the carpet. It's really not that hard to figure out why they deny and don't want an investigation into it.
Records: Too many votes in 37% of Detroit's precincts
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/12/records-many-votes-detroits-precincts/9536331
U.S. Has 3.5 Million More Registered Voters Than Live Adults — A Red Flag For Electoral Fraud
https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/u-s-has-3-5-million-more-registered-voters-than-live-adults-a-red-flag-for-electoral-fraud/
Ghost Voters
At least 3.5 million more people are on U.S. election rolls than are eligible to vote
https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/08/election-fraud-registered-voters-outnumber-eligible-voters-462-counties/
Quote
The group says the number of registered voters was between 102 percent and 144 percent higher than the actual number of people of voting age, depending on the county.
It broke down its findings by county like this: "Imperial (102 percent), Lassen (102 percent), Los Angeles (112 percent), Monterey (104 percent), San Diego (138 percent), San Francisco (114 percent), San Mateo (111 percent), Santa Cruz (109 percent), Solano (111 percent), Stanislaus (102 percent), and Yolo (110 percent)
https://www.wmar2news.com/newsy/11-california-counties-might-have-more-registered-voters-than-eligible
Clinton could have received 800,000 votes from noncitizens
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/26/hillary-clinton-received-800000-votes-from-nonciti/
670 ballots in a precinct with 276 voters, and other tales from Georgia's primary
WASHINGTON - Habersham County's Mud Creek precinct in northeastern Georgia had 276 registered voters ahead of the state's primary elections in May.
But 670 ballots were cast, according to the Georgia secretary of state's office, indicating a 243 percent turnout.
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/670-ballots-in-a-precinct-with-276-voters-and-other-tales-from-georgias-primary/ar-BBLQ5IY?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout
The discrepancy, included in a number of sworn statements and exhibits filed as part of a federal lawsuit against the state by election security activists, comes amid swelling public concern for the security of Georgia's voting systems. Georgia is one of four states that uses voting machines statewide that produce no paper record for voters to verify, making them difficult to audit, experts say.
World's greatest democracy my ass.
Quote from: "Bricktop"
I always like this song:
https://youtu.be/_IZ6Z4X59so
...because it embodies the cynicism of your post
A foreigner criticises the US, and they're tagged "anti-American".
Dylan does it, and he's a legend.