Quote from: Zetsu post_id=463391 time=1657419835 user_id=61

Quote from: Lokmar post_id=463365 time=1657412700 user_id=3351




True. Its likely many civilians will die. Again, thats gonna be bad for morale and over all support for the military. The window of opportunity for the military to quell an insurrection would be very short.



Several Red States would secede as well. That will also prolong the pain. None of the 1st world countries can relate.

I hate to break it to you, but I've never know any cases where a nation's military or police force is going through a severe morale decay or just give up due to the fact they're fighting against their own people.



Considering there are 2.5 million US military personal and 1 million US local authorities, remember they are all mentally and physically trained individuals.  You have to remember these people are modern warriors, not the average person or gun fanatic.

Quote from: Herman post_id=463370 time=1657414886 user_id=1689

Quote from: Lokmar post_id=463367 time=1657413019 user_id=3351


The 2nd time was very very mild. This time was about like the first time. I'm all good now. No lasting ill effects.

No matter what happens with the nimber of infections, there can't be madates and lockdowns ever again.

Quote from: "Just Joe" post_id=463366 time=1657412860

Quote from: Lokmar post_id=461664 time=1656348941 user_id=3351




Yea, thats about all you need to know for the most part. His emotional temper tantrums spawn from his alcoholism but they're somewhat entertaining....especially when he blows up and storms out. I think he's left the internet forever almost as many times as Oak.

BTW Lokmar how did your latest bout with COVID go?

Seemed rather rough how you described it at BF.



Seems to me you said you had COVID 2 times before 3 times total.



How did this affect you, your body & what remedies did you use to combat COVID?



Just curious.

Quote from: Zetsu post_id=463354 time=1657401390 user_id=61

Quote from: Lokmar post_id=463352 time=1657401020 user_id=3351




There would be a severe psychological collapse in the military from killing their own people. By the time 5 million citizens were dead, public opinion would solidify against the military and their authority and command structure would break down. Lets just say Australia had to put 5 million citizens down who were rioting with pitchforks. That would be the end of its government.

Tb fair, the same logic can be applied to the rebellion group, the only difference is soldiers are a lot more resilient than the average person from having to go through a mental break down.  If they don't want to fight or have a mental break down, they fall into the resigned category.

Quote from: Zetsu post_id=463351 time=1657400406 user_id=61

Quote from: Lokmar post_id=463347 time=1657399480 user_id=3351




There's not enough military in this country to successfully stop an all out civil war. There's also no chance of repealing the 2nd Amendment. American civilians will continue to have the ability to purchase and keep guns because the horrors of the alternative are far too great.

The problem doesn't lies in which side has more guns, but who has the technological superiority.  And the government first thing to do is raid or destroy all the gun factories, if not they can just freeze people's bank account from being able to withdraw money.



Lets say half of the police and military resigns, you still have about 2 million police/soldiers on duty in the US.  And for the rebelling side, lets say only 4/5 of the men and 1/5 of the women fights, and people under age 20 or over 55 are excluded due to age factors.  Technically it'll be 2 million police/soldiers vs 50 million rebels.  With only 50 million pro gun owners to take on the US military/local authorities, there'll be only blood bath on one side, and it's obvious who will be on the receiving end, I don't understand how is this even a debate and there's no contest.

Quote from: Zetsu post_id=463346 time=1657398122 user_id=61

Quote from: Lokmar post_id=463343 time=1657396080 user_id=3351




The military cannot engage in America without Martial Law. That sounds like a minor thing but psychologically, its huge. That would instantly trigger major backlash against the government, making their problem worse. The American Military has never faced an armed civilian populace like it has in its own back yard. Their bases are surrounded by those same people. Attacking and killing their own people would be hugely demoralizing. There would be desertions and refusals to follow orders constantly. We've already had dozens of statements by civilian police stating that they will NEVER comply with disarming the populace so you can count on those specific agencies to either help or step aside.



Again, the dynamics are completely different in America compared to anywhere else in the world.



The military's only hope of stopping an armed insurrection by the people would be to use weaponry that would turn their supporters against them. Then the military would implode.

From wiki it says the US president or congress alone already can impose martial law.  But lets just say if there is a armed revolution starting and hell breaks lose into full scale in less than a week and martial law is imposed.



You failed to understand the training soldiers go through, soldier's are trained to get the job done, that's it, not let their feelings decide.  Lets say even if half of the US military resigns, less than 1% doesn't resigns and goes rogue, it will still make no difference.  The problem is not in numbers of people or guns, but the immense gap in technology.  Even if the US base are surrounded by pro-gun people, tell me what can they do?  Just their lightest combat vehicle, the HUMVEE can stop nearly any bullets, even if some have .50 sniper rifles, they'll just hide in their APCs or MBTs and nothing can be done.



You won't stand a chance against them on the battlefield, so what can you do?  Snipe from your own home or an abandon building.  But the military is not retarded as they'll patrol in armoured vehicles and the M1's German forged main gun can level the entire hideout with just 1 shot;  Afterwards everyone in the hideout will be crying for help from building's collapse rubble.  



IEDs are useless as they from their experience in Afgan/Iraq they can just use radio jammers everywhere they go, unless you use wired the IED to your detinator it'll just give away your location.  And most importantly, the government can see everything you do on your smartphone if they wanted to, it'll most likely give away the whole list of rebels and who to look for.



This is just one of the most simple and common scenario why the military will win hands down, without any sweat or dent.  There are other factors, but they chance of the rebels winning is non-existent so I won't mention them.

Quote from: Zetsu post_id=463342 time=1657395631 user_id=61

Quote from: "iron horse jockey" post_id=463341 time=1657395203 user_id=2015
Does anyone seriously think throwing out the Second will lower gun violence in the States. I don't care what the Americans do. I am just pointing out there are three hundred million firearms in the States. Good luck lowering violent crime by making guns illegal.

I know it sounds hopeless, but you must start from some point, best way is to give people incentive to turn them in, even if it takes a few decades to scrap them all.

Quote from: Zetsu post_id=463340 time=1657394954 user_id=61

Quote from: Lokmar post_id=463334 time=1657393056 user_id=3351




The standard issue police have a system for monitoring all forms of electronic activity when they are searching for someone. My buddy with the marshals was telling me all about it. No doubt there will be people picked off in this manner. Meanwhile, the command structure for the civilian forces would be quickly decimated and overrun. The military COULD mobilize against the public. The question is WOULD they. We dont know for sure because we havent seen it happen. Marshal Law would have to be in place first. It would be a bloodbath. The military would be extremely demoralized at the least and after 1 week, the rest of the populace would turn on the military AND what was left of the government. Regime change would follow soon after would be my guess.



Something else to consider is unlike all other countries, Americans have quite a bit of night vision gear, enabling us to see at night. I have a thermal scope mounted to a .22. People make fun of me for putting a $1800 scope on a $300 rifle.....until they see me use it in twilight to shoot varmints. Then they want one for themselves!



Again, America is unlike all other countries. Its not gonna be a cakewalk for the authorities during a civil war. Hell, I bet a group of your average hog hunters could take over just about any medium sized city in Europe with their night gear.

I'm no US lawyer, but I'm very sure if there is an attempt to annihilate the government, there's no question the military will be used.  I don't know what makes you think the military will be demoralized and will lose about in a week when the US have fought multiple entire nations nearly non-stop for over half a century, same goes for Hong Kong's rioters were hopeless just against their average police, no SWAT were ever needed to be deployed, no morale issues from HK cops and I doubt the average American police/soldier will suffer from any either.



In regards to having night vision/infra-red, the way I see it is you have a gun along with a thermal scope, lets say it gives a "creature" like you a 2-dimension advantage, while US forces is what I would call a "beast" with at least 12-dimensions of advantage.  



You should go check out some of the new inventions the US military have came up with to take out terrorist, from smart grenade launchers with precise detination timing, to bombs that can engulf the entire interior of any cave into flames, to bullet radar giving out location of an enemy sniper, etc.



What you're using is mostly the same tech from post WWII, against the most advance, experience and professionally train military in the entire world.  Considering even China's army and their civilians with rifles weren't able to stop the IJA during WWII, chances of pro-gun owners winning against the best of the best is less than 1%.

Quote from: seoulbro post_id=463310 time=1657367629 user_id=114

Quote from: Lokmar post_id=463166 time=1657305127 user_id=3351




Believe it or not, DEF production and use creates shitloads of CO2.

I don't know anything about DEF. But, this link says it lowers C02.



https://kus-usa.com/resources/what-is-diesel-exhaust-fluid/">https://kus-usa.com/resources/what-is-d ... ust-fluid/">https://kus-usa.com/resources/what-is-diesel-exhaust-fluid/

Quote from: Zetsu post_id=463331 time=1657392970 user_id=61

Quote from: "iron horse jockey" post_id=463330 time=1657392756 user_id=2015
I don't care if the States tossed out the Second Amendment and banned all private gun ownership. But, I don't think it will lower violent gun crime.

If the US does bans guns on a national level, the black market's gun supply will most likely decline rapidly as they rely on getting their guns from other gun legal states or legal owners that sells them for money.

Quote from: Zetsu post_id=463326 time=1657381187 user_id=61

Quote from: Lokmar post_id=463286 time=1657350716 user_id=3351




Subduing criminals is far far different than controlling an armed revolutionary mob. The police would either join the people or be dead in a few days...no more than a week. One of my friends is a retired federal marshal. Mostly, they took down the criminals they were pursuing. Criminals tend to isolate themselves and the marshals would hit them with overwhelming force as soon as they had them isolated. Occasionally, they lost a man to fire from criminals. My friend was shot on 2 different occasions with handgun rounds at close range and thankfully the vest saved him. If anyone gets shot with a 223 or a 308 with a vest police commonly use, they'll suffer broken/bruised ribs and internal bleeding. Most soft vests wont sufficiently protect from a 30-06. A 12 ga slug will kill anyone wearing a soft vest if they're hit in certain spots. Even though the rounds wont penetrate, the kinetic energy can kill.  SWAT would be ineffective against large groups of armed people. If they are all equipped with hard plate body armor, they will last longer.

If it's a revolution, it's not just the police/SWAT you'll be dealing with, you'll have to expect to face the US military, the government have a endless of resources and insane amount of training and experience in guerrilla warfare.  Chances are your firearms will be effectiveless against their any armoured vehicle while.  While your phones, walkie talkies will betray you, etc.

Quote from: Bricktop post_id=463282 time=1657348773 user_id=1560

QuoteI didnt notice which country you're from but I bet when the government or criminals comes for you, your kitchen knife is your only recourse. My Benelli M4 would cut a burglar in half with 3 shots!

Wow.



You must be quite a guy.



So many guns and so much ammunition. You must be a pillar of your community.



You must have really applauded the culprit who killed those 7 people this week.



He had 5 guns and lots of bullets too. A real American.



Here's a question for you.



Would you rescind your precious stockpile of killing machines, thus increasing the risk of losing your Playstation 5 and iPhone 13 to housebreakers, in return for ensuring the safety of your community from serial murderers using high powered rifle to slaughter innocents.



Which is more important to you, chuck? Your trinkets, or the lives of others?

Quote from: Zetsu post_id=463260 time=1657336495 user_id=61
Anyways you guys should at least see some of the police/soldier's intense training they go through daily, and then compare your lifestyle to theirs.  



The government can just cut off the food source, medical care, gas supply, ammo, etc, even if you create your own factory, they can just bomb or raid it.  Eventually everyone will be desperate and surrender.



Hong Kong's SWAT team was created and trained by the SAS during colonial rule.  And the average time it takes for them to clear and secure a typical apartment unit filled with heavily armed suspect and hostages is no more than 4 seconds.  And the bad news(for the pro gun owners) is experts rated US's LA and Washington SWAT, etc at an even higher level.

Quote from: Bricktop post_id=463258 time=1657334976 user_id=1560

Quote from: Lokmar post_id=463236 time=1657330091 user_id=3351




Everyone who is free should have access to guns. Anyone who murders should be publicly executed. A lot of people should die in America every year. Only problem is, we need to make sure the right people are killed.



On tonight's news, they had a story about an old man who was beaten and robbed in his bodega. He managed to grab a knife and stabbed his attacker, killing him. New York has charged him with murder.



https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-city-bodega-worker-charged-murder-allegedly-seen-video-stabbing-ex-con-dispute">https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-cit ... on-dispute">https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-city-bodega-worker-charged-murder-allegedly-seen-video-stabbing-ex-con-dispute



Just like in  the UK, if you defend yourself with any weapon, you WILL be charged. The best way to stay alive is to have a gun to shoot these assholes BEFORE they beat you. In Europe, mass murders are committed with vehicles. Cant outrun them either.



All of this is moot because unlike the rest of the world, America has a 2nd Amendment for overthrowing the government when necessary. No number of dead kids changes that.

I must offer my gratitude to you for your input.



Your deranged and deluded views nicely corroborate my view that America is a doomed nation, ready to shoot itself to death rather than govern itself sensibly.



Cheers for that.

Quote from: Zetsu post_id=463247 time=1657332365 user_id=61

Quote from: Lokmar post_id=463236 time=1657330091 user_id=3351




Everyone who is free should have access to guns. Anyone who murders should be publicly executed. A lot of people should die in America every year. Only problem is, we need to make sure the right people are killed.



On tonight's news, they had a story about an old man who was beaten and robbed in his bodega. He managed to grab a knife and stabbed his attacker, killing him. New York has charged him with murder.



https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-city-bodega-worker-charged-murder-allegedly-seen-video-stabbing-ex-con-dispute">https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-cit ... on-dispute">https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-city-bodega-worker-charged-murder-allegedly-seen-video-stabbing-ex-con-dispute



Just like in  the UK, if you defend yourself with any weapon, you WILL be charged. The best way to stay alive is to have a gun to shoot these assholes BEFORE they beat you. In Europe, mass murders are committed with vehicles. Cant outrun them either.



All of this is moot because unlike the rest of the world, America has a 2nd Amendment for overthrowing the government when necessary. No number of dead kids changes that.

I do agree with ya on one thing that we both hate, which is criminal rights.  But aside from that I duno why do you guys are so concerned your government will turn 180 degrees on their own people and want to destroy them just for that.  Chances are if a civil war breaks out, I doubt it'll end well for people against the US military that have over 15 years of experience fighting terrorists and a century of modern combat knowledge and training.  Not to mention as long as you use smartphones, you're screwed to begin with as the government already has all your data and everything else that's in it, and can track every where you go and everything you say.