The Samurai vs the Mongols

[Zetsu]

I have to admit the mongols were genius on the battlefield, but at the same time they were lucky the Song dynasty wasn't considered unified during that time and Europe was still weak.

Hey Zetsu, nice to see you again pal.  :D

Same here Pansy  8-)

[Gary Oak]

I have to admit the mongols were genius on the battlefield, but at the same time they were lucky the Song dynasty wasn't considered unified during that time and Europe was still weak.

   I can't think of any chinese dynasty that could have defeated the Mongols. The Vietnamese won some battles against them but the Mongols I doubt were ready for the combination of Vietnamese freaks in jungle warfare

[Zetsu]

I have to admit the mongols were genius on the battlefield, but at the same time they were lucky the Song dynasty wasn't considered unified during that time and Europe was still weak.

   I can't think of any chinese dynasty that could have defeated the Mongols. The Vietnamese won some battles against them but the Mongols I doubt were ready for the combination of Vietnamese freaks in jungle warfare

The Han, Tang and Ming dynasty were pretty strong and could have defeated them.  For the Vietnamese it's not surprising why they won, considering the Mongol army is cavary based it's practically impossible for them to properly fight in a jungle enviroment, using foot soldiers as the only option, which were known as one of the weakest unit in their army.

[Gary Oak]

These dynasties may have been stronger than the Song dynasty but the quality of the soldiers wouldn't have been able to match the expertise and the size of the Mongols. The Han Tang and other dynasties proved that they were capable of handling the Mongols of their day but the Mongols of Ghengis Khan and the Yuan dynasty were a diffent bunch of Mongols. They were well trained and very experienced

[Gary Oak]

I was just watching last night with a buddhist friend of mine   The Last Samurai   and after reading this book I got so much out of it. I could see how they trained, I could see stuff in the background like Samurai sharpening their swords. My buddhist friend brought some details to my attention that I was unawar of as he had at one time studied the Japanese Zen buddhism. When one ____ to a higher level of zen buddism in their fighting they become their opponant and know what he is thinking doing etc... and then they show Tom Cruise and his opponant ending a match with him in a draw doing the same move with the kendo sword and each others throats. I wouldn't have picked up on this if my friend hadn't explained this to me before this scene was shown. Could it actually be that the Zen buddhist priests brought the bad weather that aided them in both battles ?



      The Samurai though they mostly fought against each other they certainly honed their skills with such elite forces in constant competition. When the Mongols came they must have been astounded at the far superior grappling skills and moves. the far superior archery skill [ and mongols were expert marksmen with their bows ] , the far superior striking and kicking skills and technique, the far superior swordsmanship skills and techniques and the incredible fearlessless. They must have been astounded at the boats coming at them with warriors in strange outlandish armour against what appeared to be incredible odds and then hopping on the mongol ships in attempts to defeat the vastly superior forces and then when the Samurai did make it on the boats they must have dazzled the Mongols with their superior fighting skills. The Mongols being expert fighters would have recognised the superiority of the Samurai as fighting also was their forte.



    The Mongols had poisoned arrows which were effective against the Samurai

[Gary Oak]

oops

[Gary Oak]

Here's a short version of this epic match up



Kublai Khan and the Mongols Attack on Japan (1274)



 

In 1268, after having conquered northern China and Korea, Kublai Khan demanded that Japan submit to him. The Japanese refused. In November 1274, the Khan launched a fleet of 900 ships and 40,000 troops form Korea, which arrived at Kyushu's Hakata Bay (near present-day Fukuoka, Japan) a couple days later after overwhelming Japanese forces on the islands of Tsusima and Iki. [Source: Torao Mazia, National Geographic, November 1982]



Kublai Khan attacked Japan while was still engaged in mopping up operations against the remnants of the Song Dynasty. He attacked Japan because he needed resources and wanted to demonstrate his power. The Mongol army, which fought as a mass, was no match for the 6,000 or so Japanese samurai and gokenin (armed retainers), who fought as individuals and allowed the Mongols to push only 10 miles inland after a week of fighting.



Nervous about Japanese reenforcements and perhaps about the weather, the Mongols returned to their ships. Some historical records insist the Mongol navy was overtaken by a "storm" that sunk 200 ships, took 13,500 lives and forced them to retreat to China. More likely the ships simply returned home when the wind changed direction.



After the retreat, Kublai Khan prepared to attack Japan again. During the seven year interval between the battles the Mongols ordered the Koreans to build new ships and prepare a large army for the invasion. A Mongol ship from that period found by archeologist was 230 feet in length, twice as big as any European ship used at that time.



In the meantime, Japanese built a massive 10-foot-high, 12.4-mile-long wall around Hakata Bay in six months, recruited samurai from around the archipelago and trained local fishermen and traders to be fighters. The Khan sent envoys, asking the Japanese to submit but again they refused and executed the khan's ambassadors.







Kublai Khan Attack of Japan Again (1281)



In one of the greatest naval assaults ever Kublai Khan attacked Japan in 1281 with 4,400 ships and 110,000 Korean, Chinese and Mongol troops. In contrast, the famed Spanish Armada that attempted to invade Elizabethan England contained only 130 ships and 27,500 men and the D-Day invasion force that stormed the beaches of Normandy included about 8,000 ships and 175,000 soldiers.



The Japanese army on Kyushu consisted of 100,000 regulars and 25,000 reserves. The Japanese didn't have much of a navy—their seamen were afraid of going too far away from the coast—so local pirates were hired. The pirates were so good at harassing the Yuan forces. For protection the Mongol, Chinese and Korean ships were chained together in long lines to make it harder for the pirates to board them.



The Japanese weapons and armor—bows and arrows, spears, swords, wooden shields and samurai style armor—were inferior to the poisoned arrows, maces, lassos, javelins, bombs filled with black powder, catapults and bronze helmets used by the Mongols.



One of the more unusual finds in the underwater archeological excavation of Kublai Khans fleet were bricks. The Mongols built onboard forges for blacksmiths to use in making horseshoes and repairing weapons. Some of the bricks, some scholars have speculated, may have been brought along to build shrines to celebrate a Mongol victory. [Source: Torao Mazia, National Geographic, November 1982]







Fighting During the Second Invasion by the Mongols



 

Mongol bombing attack The Mongols sent two fleets: a large Chinese one with 3,500 ships and 100,000 troops, and a smaller Korean-Mongol one with 900 ships and 10,000 troops. The two fleets were supposed to rendevous at Iki island but that didn't happen. The Korean force captured Iki and moved on without waiting for the Chinese force.



The Mongols apparently had no knowledge of the massive wall built by the Japanese. The Korean-Mongol force landed directly in front of it, with the Japanese were waiting for them. Fighting in cramped quarters along a coastlibe robbed the Mongols of their most successful tactic—the lightning cavalry charge that had routed the finest armies of Asia and Eastern Europe—and forced them back on to their ships.



The Japanese counterattacked the Mongol ships. Samurai warriors leapt onto the decks of the enemy ships and fought with the crews. Burning ships were sent into masses of enemy warships. The Korean-Mongol force retreated to Iki Island.







Kamikaze Wind Saves Japan



After being held up the larger Chinese contingent finally arrived attacked the Japanese on the island of Takashima. Fighting ther last for for weeks. The Japanese and Chinese-Mongol engaged in closely-contested battles around Hakata Bay and neither side was able to gain a clear advantage.



The Mongols attempted to break the morale of the Japanese army with brutality. The hands of Japanese women were pierced with a knives and they were tied to the bows of ships with ropes strung through their wounds.



At the end of July, as the Mongols were preparing to invade mainland Kyushu, the Emperor of Japan and other high-ranking official were praying to the gods for help. As if their prayers were answered, a "divine wind" known as a kamikaze, kicked up and halted the Mongol invasion. An estimated 4,000 ships were sunk and 100,000 lives were lost.



Japanese accounts at the time reported that "a person could walk across from one point of land to another on a mass of wreckage." Kublai Khan never sent an invading force to Japan again. A planned invasion in 1286 was called off. The Japanese launched some raids, more piratical than military, against Korea and China. The victory for the Japanese ensured their security, solitude and belief they were protected by the gods. Japan escaped foreign occupation and its territory was not threatened again until World War II, six and a half centuries later.

[Romero]

I have to admit the mongols were genius on the battlefield, but at the same time they were lucky the Song dynasty wasn't considered unified during that time and Europe was still weak.

   I can't think of any chinese dynasty that could have defeated the Mongols. The Vietnamese won some battles against them but the Mongols I doubt were ready for the combination of Vietnamese freaks in jungle warfare

The Han, Tang and Ming dynasty were pretty strong and could have defeated them.  For the Vietnamese it's not surprising why they won, considering the Mongol army is cavary based it's practically impossible for them to properly fight in a jungle enviroment, using foot soldiers as the only option, which were known as one of the weakest unit in their army.

I recently saw a great show on how the Vietnamese literally wrote the book on jungle guerilla warfare when they were first invaded by the Mongols. They kept the manual secret all these hundreds of years and used the same tactics against the French and Americans.

[Anonymous]

The Last Samurai is on TV tonight.

[Zetsu]

   I can't think of any chinese dynasty that could have defeated the Mongols. The Vietnamese won some battles against them but the Mongols I doubt were ready for the combination of Vietnamese freaks in jungle warfare

The Han, Tang and Ming dynasty were pretty strong and could have defeated them.  For the Vietnamese it's not surprising why they won, considering the Mongol army is cavary based it's practically impossible for them to properly fight in a jungle enviroment, using foot soldiers as the only option, which were known as one of the weakest unit in their army.

I recently saw a great show on how the Vietnamese literally wrote the book on jungle guerilla warfare when they were first invaded by the Mongols. They kept the manual secret all these hundreds of years and used the same tactics against the French and Americans.

I don't deny the Vietnamese have some strategy, but they wouldn't stand a chance if have to fight the Mongol cavary in a steppes like enviroment.  It's always easier to wait and ambush in a jungle, not to mention Mongol infantry were really weak.

[Zetsu]

These dynasties may have been stronger than the Song dynasty but the quality of the soldiers wouldn't have been able to match the expertise and the size of the Mongols. The Han Tang and other dynasties proved that they were capable of handling the Mongols of their day but the Mongols of Ghengis Khan and the Yuan dynasty were a diffent bunch of Mongols. They were well trained and very experienced

The Han and Tang had really huge calvary army that could have defeated the Mongols, while in the beginning of Ming they already have fire arms, rockets and made a huge fleet to explore the world, when I mean huge the capital ship in the Ming fleet was big enough to hold all of Columbus' ship on it's deck.

[Gary Oak]

The Han Tang and Ming armies may have been huge but what was the quality like ? The Mongols quality was good enough to wipe out the high quality knights of Europe. Chinese armies had size but their quality was low. When the foreign powers sent armies up the Tianjin River after the boxer rebellion they were outnumbered 5 to 1 yet out of this vastly outnumbered force the Japanese came out and charged the Chinese line and the Chinese ran. The Japanese were outnumbered possibly 20 to one. The difference between the Mongols of the Han Tang and Ming dynasties is that they weren't united or as expert fighters. The Samurai however trained from childhood in grappling,archery,swordmanship striking and maybe some things that I have overlooked like possibly a fighters psyche. They were complete fighting experts at least at the time of the Mongol invasion. In some later periods some had actually become hardly experts at all. The seven hundred year history of the Samurai made Japan a very unique nation. This Samurai era wasn't exactly a fairy tale paradise, the had the legal right to kill commoners who offended them.

[Zetsu]

The Han Tang and Ming armies may have been huge but what was the quality like ? The Mongols quality was good enough to wipe out the high quality knights of Europe. Chinese armies had size but their quality was low. When the foreign powers sent armies up the Tianjin River after the boxer rebellion they were outnumbered 5 to 1 yet out of this vastly outnumbered force the Japanese came out and charged the Chinese line and the Chinese ran. The Japanese were outnumbered possibly 20 to one. The difference between the Mongols of the Han Tang and Ming dynasties is that they weren't united or as expert fighters. The Samurai however trained from childhood in grappling,archery,swordmanship striking and maybe some things that I have overlooked like possibly a fighters psyche. They were complete fighting experts at least at the time of the Mongol invasion. In some later periods some had actually become hardly experts at all. The seven hundred year history of the Samurai made Japan a very unique nation. This Samurai era wasn't exactly a fairy tale paradise, the had the legal right to kill commoners who offended them.

The knights in Europe before 1450 were still poor, many of them didn't have full platemail and their forging technology were still inferior to China during the time.  For Han and Tang had an amazing army.



Comparing Han Dynasty to Roman Empire...

Hans were superior in metal forging technology, they were already using steel while Romans only had iron

The method of Japanese crafting katanas by folding a sheet of metal around the spine of the sword, the idea originated from China, which already existed during the Han dynasty

China used crossbows with a far more precise trigger mechanism that can also hold a much higher load that is capable of piercing Roman armour or shields from over 500 meters away

Han cavary were at least triple of Roman cavary, while Roman were practically all infantry

Agricultural food production, the average Chinese farmer can produce 4x the ammount of crops compared to Roman famers, this is critical for extending supply lines

Economy was also much better while Romans heavily depended on slaves which was never stable or reliable



While Tang were far stronger than the Han dynasty.

[Gary Oak]

Numbers doesn't necessarily mean superiority.   The Romans were very well trained,bigger and stronger. Your statistics sound alot like the kind one got during the cultural revolution or even in the PRC today. As we see in the dollar stores chinese quality is as a rule sorely lacking. If one reads Poorly Made In China  by paul Midler  it is explained quite well how this culture of poor quality products works. Chinese weapnory wouldn't be free of this culture either. Rome was capable of extending it's empire to India. Was the Chinese economy really so strong ? Then why was there famines in virtually every year in the last 2000 years ? I study was done in the 1030's covering only the documented famines.



    But now we are talking about the Yuan dynasty . The knights of Europe were expert fighters and they proved this in the nearly 200 years of crusades. The Knights Templer, The Knights Hospitaller,the Tuetonic Knights amzed the moslems with their fighting ability and fierceness. Chinese fighters are cruel but they seldom ever impressed with their skill. When their numbers were so large that an opponant wouldn't fight back was when they were most successful

[Zetsu]

Numbers doesn't necessarily mean superiority.   The Romans were very well trained,bigger and stronger. Your statistics sound alot like the kind one got during the cultural revolution or even in the PRC today. As we see in the dollar stores chinese quality is as a rule sorely lacking. If one reads Poorly Made In China  by paul Midler  it is explained quite well how this culture of poor quality products works. Chinese weapnory wouldn't be free of this culture either. Rome was capable of extending it's empire to India. Was the Chinese economy really so strong ? Then why was there famines in virtually every year in the last 2000 years ? I study was done in the 1030's covering only the documented famines.



    But now we are talking about the Yuan dynasty . The knights of Europe were expert fighters and they proved this in the nearly 200 years of crusades. The Knights Templer, The Knights Hospitaller,the Tuetonic Knights amzed the moslems with their fighting ability and fierceness. Chinese fighters are cruel but they seldom ever impressed with their skill. When their numbers were so large that an opponant wouldn't fight back was when they were most successful

You can't compare the China today to the one in the past, China as a nation has already lost it's edge since the fall of the Tang dynasty and as centuries pass they only became more and more backwards and socially corrupt.  Chinese in the old days were far more civil than the ones we see today, in fact Korean's war culture is heavily influence by the Han dynasty while Japan adopted the social Tang culture, whether it's about the manners, swords crafting, Confucious, etc.  Professional historians would say Roman wouldn't be able to defeat the Hans based on the major key factors I've listed previously.  Remember the Romans are no match for the Huns nomad that were defeated by the Hans dynasty.  While I forgot to mention Roman seige weapons were also inferior to the ones made by Hans, and in war even if Romans were trained better due to their professionalism as a soldier, they wouldn't stand much of a chance from the volley of arrows in a battle from Han crossbowman which the Chinese were very famous for, along with Roman's limited cavalry compared to Han, which are extremely critical units in determining a victory.  About famines they've always existed in China, the economy of Han were good, basically all dynasty at the beginning were very strong, but after a few hundred years they eventually falls and breaks apart.  Roman were superior in China to in civil engineering and their soldier's professionalism, but the rest I have to give the credit to China.  



About knights I duno were they really good, they did lost to the Muslims, and maintaining platemail is just too expensive and impractical in a fullscale war compared to the more cost efficent scale armor used by China.  About how tactics used by Han crossbowmen works, they set up 3 line formation of archers, each soldier are trained to reload the crossbow as fast as in less than 7 seconds, with 3 lines it's about less than 3 seconds per volley of fire, most Roman troops wouldn't be able to get near them without being hit, not to mention the arrows used are also poisonous and capable of piercing their armor or shields, this was proven based on some type of physics simulation test by finding out the hardness or Roman armor/shields and the force of Chinese crossbows.  It's been proven in history many times a defense formation of archery is superior to melee units charging in, another example is in one of the battles when France bought 5000 knights on horses to fight against the English, the Brits use lowbow archers, 5000 French knights sounds like a huge threat, but when they got anywhere close to the archers only a few hundred French units were left.



In history there was a record about Roman troops encountering Han troops in the past before, the Roman troops were killed by the Hans, but at the same time the Romans were out numbered too.  Cause of death were archery.