The Great Abortion Debate

[asal]

Further, science does not know at what point , initally? ...  after x number of days?, after xx number of days? it is a baby / human life / or whatever they wish to call it



I admit that I don't know ... Everyone seems to think they know, but I have never heard any of them  scientifically establish when.

Why? Because science cannot ... at least to date it cannot



"Science as a whole" does not even know the criterion to use, let alone know

Life begins at conception..



Ant attempt to stop it after that is murder.

I understand why you say that and respect that. And your reason works for you.



however, I'm asking in scientific terms only



If anyone can tell me "when" ... "in absolute scientific terms", please do so now.

Science is actually pretty clear on the matter.  Life begins at fertilization/conception.



http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

Life does not mean sentient.  All living cells are alive.  Single cell algae, bacteria, fertilized eggs, amoebas / they don't have brains or any kind of sentience.  Lower intelligence than a lobster.

You don't need to have a brain to be a living organism.



I understand all living cells are alive.  The question is at what point does new life begin and that's at fertilization.  Like I said, science is pretty clear on this.

It's a living clump of cells.  Nothing more spectacular than that.  Developing into something spectacular.

[RW]

Further, science does not know at what point , initally? ...  after x number of days?, after xx number of days? it is a baby / human life / or whatever they wish to call it



I admit that I don't know ... Everyone seems to think they know, but I have never heard any of them  scientifically establish when.

Why? Because science cannot ... at least to date it cannot



"Science as a whole" does not even know the criterion to use, let alone know

Life begins at conception..



Ant attempt to stop it after that is murder.

I understand why you say that and respect that. And your reason works for you.



however, I'm asking in scientific terms only



If anyone can tell me "when" ... "in absolute scientific terms", please do so now.

Science is actually pretty clear on the matter.  Life begins at fertilization/conception.



http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html">http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/artic ... otes2.html">http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

Life does not mean sentient.  All living cells are alive.  Single cell algae, bacteria, fertilized eggs, amoebas / they don't have brains or any kind of sentience.  Lower intelligence than a lobster.

You don't need to have a brain to be a living organism.



I understand all living cells are alive.  The question is at what point does new life begin and that's at fertilization.  Like I said, science is pretty clear on this.

It's a living clump of cells.  Nothing more spectacular than that.  Developing into something spectacular.

Two sets of chromosomes dancing in embryogenesis isn't spectacular?

[asal]

Further, science does not know at what point , initally? ...  after x number of days?, after xx number of days? it is a baby / human life / or whatever they wish to call it



I admit that I don't know ... Everyone seems to think they know, but I have never heard any of them  scientifically establish when.

Why? Because science cannot ... at least to date it cannot



"Science as a whole" does not even know the criterion to use, let alone know

Life begins at conception..



Ant attempt to stop it after that is murder.

I understand why you say that and respect that. And your reason works for you.



however, I'm asking in scientific terms only



If anyone can tell me "when" ... "in absolute scientific terms", please do so now.

Science is actually pretty clear on the matter.  Life begins at fertilization/conception.



http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html">http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/artic ... otes2.html">http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

Life does not mean sentient.  All living cells are alive.  Single cell algae, bacteria, fertilized eggs, amoebas / they don't have brains or any kind of sentience.  Lower intelligence than a lobster.

You don't need to have a brain to be a living organism.



I understand all living cells are alive.  The question is at what point does new life begin and that's at fertilization.  Like I said, science is pretty clear on this.

It's a living clump of cells.  Nothing more spectacular than that.  Developing into something spectacular.

Two sets of chromosomes dancing in embryogenesis isn't spectacular?

It is :). I like fungal sexual reproduction too.  Some of it is very beautiful.  The start of a human or any person (dogs, apes) / it is precious and beautiful.

[Romero]

So if abortion is not murder, then why when a pregnant woman is tragically killed in a homicide, the perpetrator runs the risk of being slapped with double murder or manslaughter charges?



It seems to me that as a society we want it both ways. Is one form of murder okay and sanctioned by the state while another isn't? Doesn't exactly sound right, does it?

If abortion is murder, should women who get abortions be sentenced and jailed as murderers? Is Dove a murderer since she got an abortion? Should she have served time in prison?



What about abortion in cases of rape and incest? If abortion is murder, should rape and incest victims who get abortions be considered murderers? Or do they get the right to choose? What if a woman simply claims she was raped? Would rape victims have to prove they were raped?



How about abortion in cases of medical necessity. There might be a 90% chance the mother and child may die, or it may be just a 10% chance. So who gets to draw the line? Who gets to decide for the doctor and patient? What if there was high chance only the mother would die? Should she be forced to give birth when she would likely die as a result? Who gets to decide that?



Rape and incest victims should have the right to choose. Doctors and patients should have the right to choose. Well, that's exactly what happens when abortion is legal.



Surely many here agree with me that abortion should be allowed in cases of rape, incest and health. But many in the pro-life movement still consider those exceptions as murder.



When just one person gets to personally decide on women's rights and health, everyone else wants to jump in with their own judgements and restrictions. It would never stop. Is birth control murder? Some people think it is.



It should be up to a doctor and patient. Any woman could have a hundred reasons why she should have the right to choose and we should mind our own business. We have no right telling women we don't even know that we know what's best for them. We have no idea what they're going through or what their personal and medical reasons are.



The vast majority of women having abortions aren't doing so because they're "selfish" and "don't feel like having a baby". They've got reasons why we could never understand.



The vast majority of doctors and medical associations do know what's best. They know pro-choice is the only way to go.



Criminalizing the right to choose, women's rights and health, does not work. Again, show me any country where it does. Women are going to get abortions whether it's legal or not. They can get them safely, or they can suffer. It's a horror show for women in countries where abortion is illegal, yet they still have at least as many abortions where it is legal.

[RW]

Really Romero?  Wouldn't it be extremely difficult to get numbers of abortions in countries where it is illegal?  If so, where do such statistics come from?  Back alleys?  Coat hook sales?  Stairwell accidents?

[RW]

Before we go much further on this, I truly believe the decision between pro-life and pro-choice is not as far as we think.



I'd like to know who here PROMOTES abortion itself.  



I am for women to have a choice but it's not a choice I promote.

[Wulf]

Before we go much further on this, I truly believe the decision between pro-life and pro-choice is not as far as we think.



I'd like to know who here PROMOTES abortion itself.  



I am for women to have a choice but it's not a choice I promote.

I think most people and that includes most women, are pro-choice but they abhor the act of abortion.



Why....because deep down, they know it is morally wrong.



As for who promotes abortion, I think we need look no further than our very own male feminist, code pink, douche. He obviously thinks it's wonderful and some kind of an inalienable right to be able to legally kill the unborn. To people like Romero the boogie man of back ally abortion is so frightening that they can't sleep at night but yet the idea of doing the exact same thing in a more clinical setting where the gov gives a thumbs up is A-Okay.



It's a sick mentally that all progressive must adhere to so that they can justify the act of abortion. Abortion, no matter where it is done or under whatever circumstance, legal or not, is an unsavory, act of barbarity. Anyone with an ounce of a conscience or morality knows this. Even if you believe it to be a women's right to choose, morality dictates that you have to recognize that it is a heinous act.

[RW]

It isn't a pleasant act that's for sure.  I don't think it sits well with anyone.  I don't know why we pretend it does when someone says he/she is pro-choice.



Check yourself on the progress/lefty bullshit Wulf.

[Wulf]

It isn't a pleasant act that's for sure.  I don't think it sits well with anyone.  I don't know why we pretend it does when someone says he/she is pro-choice.



Check yourself on the progress/lefty bullshit Wulf.

I'm sorry but those who can live with idea that terminating human life is a good thing are predominantly those that subscribe to progressive/liberal ideology. I don't think you will find many conservatives or even many moderates that are as okay with the concept of legalized abortion as you will in the liberal/progressive community.



Is that really too difficult for you to swallow?

[RW]

It isn't a pleasant act that's for sure.  I don't think it sits well with anyone.  I don't know why we pretend it does when someone says he/she is pro-choice.



Check yourself on the progress/lefty bullshit Wulf.

I'm sorry but those who can live with idea that terminating human life is a good thing are predominantly those that subscribe to progressive/liberal ideology. I don't think you will find many conservatives or even many moderates that are as okay with the concept of legalized abortion as you will in the liberal/progressive community.



Is that really too difficult for you to swallow?

Odd that the only person who has admitted to an abortion on this board strikes me as neither liberal or progressive.



Please don't let reality hit you in the ass on your way out dear.

[Wulf]

It isn't a pleasant act that's for sure.  I don't think it sits well with anyone.  I don't know why we pretend it does when someone says he/she is pro-choice.



Check yourself on the progress/lefty bullshit Wulf.

I'm sorry but those who can live with idea that terminating human life is a good thing are predominantly those that subscribe to progressive/liberal ideology. I don't think you will find many conservatives or even many moderates that are as okay with the concept of legalized abortion as you will in the liberal/progressive community.



Is that really too difficult for you to swallow?

Odd that the only person who has admitted to an abortion on this board strikes me as neither liberal or progressive.



Please don't let reality hit you in the ass on your way out dear.

Odd that that same person is so vehemently against abortion. If you bothered to read some of my previous posts you would realize that I'm not talking about those that have had abortions but those that think they are no big deal.



Anyone can make the decision to have one given their state of mind or perticular circumstance at the time. No can be the judge of what runs thru a desperate woman's mind during such a time. It's how you feel about doing it that makes the difference. Progressives will just say it's just a lump of tissue and move on while others will not be so cavalier about it. You should know and understand this by now.



I can appreciate that you, as a liberal don't like having the finger pointed at you but that's too bad. It's the left that pushes abortion and the far left that promotes it as something other than a last resort. That's simply reality.



I'd like to say to you, get your head out of your ass on this aspect of the issue but wouldn't be nice. But please don't try to argue that hot button social issues like abortion, DON'T fall along ideological lines. It would be very foolish.

[Anonymous]

So if abortion is not murder, then why when a pregnant woman is tragically killed in a homicide, the perpetrator runs the risk of being slapped with double murder or manslaughter charges?



It seems to me that as a society we want it both ways. Is one form of murder okay and sanctioned by the state while another isn't? Doesn't exactly sound right, does it?

 It's murder if you want the baby. It's a terminated clump of cells if you dont. This, of course, makes zero sense.

Technically it's not murder.  It's not "murder" because murder is a legal term defined as "unlawful killing".  Since abortion up to a certain stage is lawful, it cannot be called murder.

The Unborn Victims of Violence Act passed by the US Congress in 2004 defines a fetus as "a child in utero" and as a person. It makes no distinction regarding term of the fetus. However, It does have a provision that exempts abortion.



It is a fucked up double standard where murder of a unborn life by the state is sanctioned BUT injury or killing by someone other than the state or state regulated personnel is not. This is just sick. It all boils down to the fact that it is okay for the government to give permission to their pet flunkies to kill the unborn but if Joe Asshole Wife Beater pushes his prego bitch down a flight of stairs and she miscarriages, he is in a whole new world of shit. It just went from domestic assault to fucking murder faster than the fat bitch could roll down the stairs.

I'm only telling you why one is illegal and one isn't and it has to do with the legal definition of murder.  One is lawful (abortion) and one isn't (homicide).

 War is murdering.  I don't split hairs our alter definitions because other humans attempt to make something less evil than it is.  Abortion is the murdering of an innocent and helpless human.

[asal]

War is murdering.  I don't split hairs our alter definitions because other humans attempt to make something less evil than it is.  Abortion is the murdering of an innocent and helpless human.

It's not a human.  It's the start of a human.  You are torturing yourself and being wilfully ignorant to call the early stages of development by the same word as the final product.



You could choose to go closer to one of the endpoints and just keep calling them gametes right through until they're born, or turn 40, or whatever point.

[Wulf]

War is murdering.  I don't split hairs our alter definitions because other humans attempt to make something less evil than it is.  Abortion is the murdering of an innocent and helpless human.

It's not a human.  It's the start of a human.  You are torturing yourself and being wilfully ignorant to call the early stages of development by the same word as the final product.



You could choose to go closer to one of the endpoints and just keep calling them gametes right through until they're born, or turn 40, or whatever point.

The tissue growth that begins at conception is human. If it wasn't, the end result would be something else. To deny that fact is just shuffling the moral side of the argument under the rug.

[@realAzhyaAryola]

If I got pregnant due to a rape, I will not be endangering myself by carrying to term a pregnancy when I am emotionally upset and distraught. Though my pregnancy was planned, events in my life at the time caused me to be very upset toward the last few months of my pregnancy and I nearly lost the baby and I nearly did not survive it. As a result, baby had to be born 2 months early, and I was in intensive care unit. How can any woman be healthy in mind, body, and spirit knowing she is carrying to term a pregnancy that they did not want? That is just wrong.