Can Pop Art, Top 40 Music, Top 10 Bestseller Books & Hollywood Cinema be considered as 'Legitimate Culture'?

[J0E]

What was considered decades ago as entertainment for mass consumption appears to becoming accepted as 'legitimate culture'. In other words, it seems to be taking the place of what was considered 'classical culture' ie - Classical Music, Classical 19th or Ancient Literature, Shakespearean Theatre, Greek/Roman Mythology, etc. You know here terms like 'Classic Rock' - that is top 40 hits which were considered fit for 14 year olds a generation ago, but are now part of the mainstream of popular folklore. ie - the Beatles have become the 'Gold Standard' by which much of the population considers musical excellence, as opposed to works by Beethoven or Mozart. Or movies such as Star Wars, or Marvel Superheroes, which have replaced what were once considered the pillars of our civilization, such as Greek Mythology. More Kids seem to refer to Spiderman or Doctor Octupus as their mythological figures of reference as opposed to Zeus or Perseus. Actually if you asked anyone born after 1980 about Greek Mythology, many wouldn't have clue what you're talking about.



Question is - is popular culture which was intended for consumption by the masses and primarily to satisfy the profit motives of venture capitalists, truly 'legitimate'? Or does our reference point of 'legitimacy' merely change from one generation to the next - which makes them perfectly so?



Anyways, it's just something to think about or discuss.

[Anonymous]

What was considered decades ago as entertainment for mass consumption appears to becoming accepted as 'legitimate culture'. In other words, it seems to be taking the place of what was considered 'classical culture' ie - Classical Music, Classical 19th or Ancient Literature, Shakespearean Theatre, Greek/Roman Mythology, etc. You know here terms like 'Classic Rock' - that is top 40 hits which were considered fit for 14 year olds a generation ago, but are now part of the mainstream of popular folklore. ie - the Beatles have become the 'Gold Standard' by which much of the population considers musical excellence, as opposed to works by Beethoven or Mozart. Or movies such as Star Wars, or Marvel Superheroes, which have replaced what were once considered the pillars of our civilization, such as Greek Mythology. More Kids seem to refer to Spiderman or Doctor Octupus as their mythological figures of reference as opposed to Zeus or Perseus. Actually if you asked anyone born after 1980 about Greek Mythology, many wouldn't have clue what you're talking about.



Question is - is popular culture which was intended for consumption by the masses and primarily to satisfy the profit motives of venture capitalists, truly 'legitimate'? Or does our reference point of 'legitimacy' merely change from one generation to the next - which makes them perfectly so?



Anyways, it's just something to think about or discuss.

I can't answer about the motive thingy, but pop culture does seem homogenizing..



The popular music and films of East Asia are influenced by the West and vice versa..



Maybe it's a natural progression of affluence, I don' know..



But, one cultural aspect newly affluent societies seem to maintain is their cuisine.

[Bricktop]

It is very definitely legitimate.



It defines a point in human history and civilisation, and is no less valid than the more historic cultural examples you cite. Not better, not worse, nor more relevant, but just the same. Lennon/McCartney will be categorised in the same breath as Mozart or Beethoven. However, we will not be cultivating myths as the Greeks, Egyptians and inventors of religious tales did, simply because we are able to document and rationalise our place in human history with far greater reliability and accuracy.



Our cultural moment will be defined by history as an explosion of liberal thinking and expression, whereas the previous cultural epoch was more disciplined and constrained.

[Renee]

Joe is so dumb that he doesn't realize that things like the plays of Shakespeare, Homers Illiad, and much of 18 and 19th century literature was considered part of the so-called Pop Culture of its day.  



I really wonder about Joe.  

[Bricktop]

I'd love to see how history judges Kiss, The Hangover and other American junk culture icons.

[J0E]

No, you're wrong, Renn.



And I disagree with you.



Many people, if not most back in that time in Europe and North America, could not read or write. Education of any kind was a luxury back then, as it was right up until World War II.



So what they heard from High Culture of that sort was imparted to them verbally or in the form of live performances in town halls or village squares - if they made it that far.



Popular culture in Europe for the masses was gypsy or street music  which the performers learned by ear as opposed to reading sheet music. In America, it was taking tunes from the British Isles and adapting them for the local peoples.  eg:

[RW]

The next round of humans after we're wiped out will be digging our crap up trying to understand WTF it all meant.  It'll confuse the hell out of them when they do!

[Anonymous]

The next round of humans after we're wiped out will be digging our crap up trying to understand WTF it all meant.  It'll confuse the hell out of them when they do!

It would be very interesting to know what history will say about us.

 ac_umm

[Renee]

Joe is an idiot.



And he is dead wrong about what constitutes high culture during the classical era, the middle ages, the Renaissance and pre-20th century America and Europe.



Pop culture during the Elizabethan era was indeed the plays of Shakespeare and his contemporaries. You did not need to be able to read or write to enter the Globe Theater and watch a fucking play. Plays were the rock concerts of their time. They were advertised to the illiterate masses by flags hung outside the theater which signified the type of play being performed. High Culture of the time that the rich were exposed to were things like religious writings, Latin and Greek, dance, swordsmanship and the written works of Aristotle and Plato. During the 16th and early 17 the century Shakespeare was not considered an example of high or establishment culture. It was pop culture created to entertain the common man.



Greek and Roman mythology was created to entertain the masses or to explain the motives of the Gods and their offspring. They were also presented in the form of PLAYS. Reading or writing was not required.



As far as pre 20th century western pop culture goes, it was made up of theater, art and dime novels. Many of those so called dime novels are what today refer to as the classics. The pop culture of the time was much the same as it is today.



Joe is an idiot. He tries really hard to look intelligent but he fucks up because he over thinks every subject he gets himself into and in the process he loses sight of all common sense.

[Renee]

I'd love to see how history judges Kiss, The Hangover and other American junk culture icons.

Probably the same way the Austra!ian Bee Gees will be judged for being responsible for perpetuating the popular music abberation know as Disco.



Fuck You and your any excuse to interject your anti-Americanism.

[Bricktop]

Oh, you going to get all angelic and innocent?



You never miss a chance to TRY and demean my countries.



The difference is I use fact, and you use bullshit.

[Renee]

Oh, you going to get all angelic and innocent?



You never miss a chance to TRY and demean my countries.



The difference is I use fact, and you use bullshit.

If you'll notice I'm generally not the one to throw the first turd.

[Bricktop]

Ohhhhh...I hadn't noticed...



Because that is NOT the case. I distinctly remember you going off about Australia to Gordy over at Van, compelling me to intervene (he's hardly capable of holding up a decent argument).



Everything you say is couched in demeaning language about Australia. Now, its OK. I'm not complaining. If I were American, I'd try and drag other nationalities down to my level too.



I don't take it personally. And if I did, you'd give zero fucks anyway.



AND, I am compelled to remind you that I tried to be NICE when you returned from my last shellacking, and you could not find it in you to reciprocate.

[Renee]

Ohhhhh...I hadn't noticed...



Because that is NOT the case. I distinctly remember you going off about Australia to Gordy over at Van, compelling me to intervene (he's hardly capable of holding up a decent argument).



Everything you say is couched in demeaning language about Australia. Now, its OK. I'm not complaining. If I were American, I'd try and drag other nationalities down to my level too.



I don't take it personally. And if I did, you'd give zero fucks anyway.



AND, I am compelled to remind you that I tried to be NICE when you returned from my last shellacking, and you could not find it in you to reciprocate.

Oh stop your baby bullshit. You're going on 70 years old and you act like you are 7.



Let me remind you that the thing with Gordy happened over 3 years ago and he more then deserved whatever I gave him. You should be deeply embarrassed by the way he represented himself and your country. Anything I said to him regarding his mother country had more than just cause. Any place that spawned that douche bag must not be without some severe social faults.



As for the nice guy act,.....sorry....wasn't falling for it and neither was anyone else. Just like no one falls for your erroneous claims of you giving me a "shellacking" at any time in you career on any forum.



Now let me explain something to you. The reason I'm so down on you Aussies is because my RL experience with you people, going all the way back to college, has been poor. I don't know much about your government, your society and I dont really care but what I've seen of your citizens, I'm not impressed. All in total I've had the distinct displease of coming in close contact with 12 Stralians in my life so far and only 2 were what I would call "decent". Those were 2 older gay gentlemen my husband and I sat next to at a restaurant in NYC. They were polite, friendly and delightfully respectful. Our encounter was brief but from the way they wonderfully conducted themselves, I'm more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.  The others I've met.....well without going into detail, lets just say they were a tad borish, rude, and arogant enough to make me want to put a dent in their fucking foreheads. In fact one Aussie woman I ran into on a cruise nearly ended up being thrown to the fish by me after some particularly rude and obnoxious comments. My experiences online haven't been much better. In fact I have one Aussie riding my ass with derogatory comments almost daily on VF, all because from the very begining, I didn't fall for his/her gender bender, faux intellectual, trolling bullshit. Like you, he/she never misses an opportunity to take a swipe at me; not that it really matters much.



So pardon me if I paint you, your countrymen and your country with a very broad and shit dipped brush. Believe me, I don't do it for shits and giggles.

[RW]

Just out of curiosity Renee, have you considered if he's had similar experiences with YOUR countrymen?



I, on the other hand, have had many wonderful experiences with both Americans and Aussies. I've come across many in my life both IRL and online for what that's worth.