Both EVs and ICE's cause pollution, no matter which way you slice it. Calling one "green" because the pollution is happening somewhere other than the vehicle just doesn't cut it. And that's before we consider the exorbitant parts and service costs (to say nothing of the disposal of the waste) of the so-called "green" alternative.

But hey, if you get high off huffing your own farts, then go for it. Just don't bullshit the rest of us into saying your shit doesn't stink because *newsflash* some of us know it stinks to high heaven. Dribbling on about a one degree rise in global temperatues and pretending you're somehow having a positive effect towards negating it is a lie and one that (if you got your way with the mandates) will ultimately cost everyone... even you... your mobility when it is finally admitted to be the self same bastards who would ensure you spent 50K when it runs out of warranty anyway.

Verdict in favour of internal combustion. Next case please.

Quote from: Brent on December 11, 2023, 06:30:29 PMJust Teslas or all electric cars. My wife and I are thinking about an electric car when we move to Panama.

Panama? I think the Darien Gap would be suitable.

Quote from: Adolf Oliver Bush on December 12, 2023, 03:36:56 AMBoth EVs and ICE's cause pollution, no matter which way you slice it. Calling one "green" because the pollution is happening somewhere other than the vehicle just doesn't cut it. And that's before we consider the exorbitant parts and service costs (to say nothing of the disposal of the waste) of the so-called "green" alternative.

But hey, if you get high off huffing your own farts, then go for it. Just don't bullshit the rest of us into saying your shit doesn't stink because *newsflash* some of us know it stinks to high heaven. Dribbling on about a one degree rise in global temperatues and pretending you're somehow having a positive effect towards negating it is a lie and one that (if you got your way with the mandates) will ultimately cost everyone... even you... your mobility when it is finally admitted to be the self same bastards who would ensure you spent 50K when it runs out of warranty anyway.

Verdict in favour of internal combustion. Next case please.

Precisely.

Quote from: Seamajor1 on December 12, 2023, 09:27:41 AMPanama? I think the Darien Gap would be suitable.

I am not interested in making idol chit chat with you.

Quote from: Brent on December 12, 2023, 03:10:11 PMI am not interested in making idol chit chat with you.

Only trying to help pal. I've lived down here for 26 years. Panama? I'd rethink it. Ever had denge?  Yellow fever?

EVs made a some sense when they their final cost is less than $30,000 after tax & rebate but now $60,000 starting for the cheapest Tesla defeats the point of buying one even with a affordable electricity rates.

Quote from: Zetsu on December 12, 2023, 08:31:45 PMEVs made a some sense when they their final cost is less than $30,000 after tax & rebate but now $60,000 starting for the cheapest Tesla defeats the point of buying one even with a affordable electricity rates.

Brother, there aint no reasonably priced vehicles anymore. Since the pandemic bullshit started, all vehicles, ICE or EV have soared in price.

Quote from: Herman on December 12, 2023, 08:44:20 PMBrother, there aint no reasonably priced vehicles anymore. Since the pandemic bullshit started, all vehicles, ICE or EV have soared in price.

I almost forgot everything had gone up, though EVs are still a wolf in sheep clothing imo

Quote from: Zetsu on December 12, 2023, 08:52:21 PMEVs are still a wolf in sheep clothing imo.

You got that right.

Quote from: Zetsu on December 12, 2023, 08:31:45 PMEVs made a some sense when they their final cost is less than $30,000 after tax & rebate but now $60,000 starting for the cheapest Tesla defeats the point of buying one even with a affordable electricity rates.

This is a Tesla model Y battery. It takes up all of the space under the passenger compartment of the car.
To manufacture it you need:
--12 tons of rock for Lithium (can also be
    extracted from sea water)
-- 5 tons of cobalt minerals (Most cobalt is made as a byproduct of the processing of copper and nickel ores. It is the most difficult material to obtain for a battery and the most expensive.)
-- 3 tons nickel ore
-- 12 tons of copper ore
You must move 250 tons of soil to obtain:
-- 26.5 pounds of Lithium
-- 30 pounds of nickel
-- 48.5 pounds of manganese
-- 15 pounds of cobalt
To manufacture the battery also requires:
-- 441 pounds of aluminum, steel and/or plastic
-- 112 pounds of graphite
The Caterpillar 994A is used for the earthmoving to obtain the essential minerals. It consumes 264 gallons of diesel in 12 hours.
Finally you get a "zero emissions" car.
Presently, the bulk of the necessary minerals for manufacturing the batteries come from China or Africa. Much of the labor for getting the minerals in Africa is done by children! If we buy electric cars, it's China who profits most!
BTW, this 2021 Tesla Model Y OEM battery (the cheapest Tesla battery) is currently for sale on the Internet for $4,999 not including shipping or installation. The battery weighs 1,000 pounds (you can imagine the shipping cost). The cost of Tesla batteries is:
Model 3 -- $14,000  (Car MSRP $38,990)
Model Y -- $5,000–$5,500 (Car MSRP $47,740)
Model S -- $13,000–$20,000 (Car MSRP $74,990)
Model X -- $13,000  (Car MSRP $79,990)
It takes SEVEN years for an electric car to reach net-zero CO2. The life expectancy of the batteries is 10 years (average). Only in the last three years do you begin to reduce your carbon footprint. Then the batteries have to be replacement and you lose all the gains you made in those three years."

Quote from: Brent on December 13, 2023, 03:04:20 PM
This is a Tesla model Y battery. It takes up all of the space under the passenger compartment of the car.
To manufacture it you need:
--12 tons of rock for Lithium (can also be
    extracted from sea water)
-- 5 tons of cobalt minerals (Most cobalt is made as a byproduct of the processing of copper and nickel ores. It is the most difficult material to obtain for a battery and the most expensive.)
-- 3 tons nickel ore
-- 12 tons of copper ore
You must move 250 tons of soil to obtain:
-- 26.5 pounds of Lithium
-- 30 pounds of nickel
-- 48.5 pounds of manganese
-- 15 pounds of cobalt
To manufacture the battery also requires:
-- 441 pounds of aluminum, steel and/or plastic
-- 112 pounds of graphite
The Caterpillar 994A is used for the earthmoving to obtain the essential minerals. It consumes 264 gallons of diesel in 12 hours.
Finally you get a "zero emissions" car.
Presently, the bulk of the necessary minerals for manufacturing the batteries come from China or Africa. Much of the labor for getting the minerals in Africa is done by children! If we buy electric cars, it's China who profits most!
BTW, this 2021 Tesla Model Y OEM battery (the cheapest Tesla battery) is currently for sale on the Internet for $4,999 not including shipping or installation. The battery weighs 1,000 pounds (you can imagine the shipping cost). The cost of Tesla batteries is:
Model 3 -- $14,000  (Car MSRP $38,990)
Model Y -- $5,000–$5,500 (Car MSRP $47,740)
Model S -- $13,000–$20,000 (Car MSRP $74,990)
Model X -- $13,000  (Car MSRP $79,990)
It takes SEVEN years for an electric car to reach net-zero CO2. The life expectancy of the batteries is 10 years (average). Only in the last three years do you begin to reduce your carbon footprint. Then the batteries have to be replacement and you lose all the gains you made in those three years."

This is the first time in my life to ever be disturbed by solid facts and data... and I'd say an EV will never balance out or reach net zero emission if we take powerplants, battery disposal, and other reasons into account.

Quote from: Zetsu on December 13, 2023, 07:57:34 PMThis is the first time in my life to ever be disturbed by solid facts and data... and I'd say an EV will never balance out or reach net zero emission if we take powerplants, battery disposal, and other reasons into account.

A hell of a lot of resources go into those damned things. And progtards think they are sustainable. Not frickin likely.

Quote from: Herman on December 13, 2023, 10:27:38 PMA hell of a lot of resources go into those damned things. And progtards think they are sustainable. Not frickin likely.

Japanese car companies were smart at first for not buying into the EV garbage.  Though now I heard they're making EVs with solid state batteries in order to compete with Tesla. 

Quote from: Zetsu on December 14, 2023, 02:34:52 PMJapanese car companies were smart at first for not buying into the EV garbage.  Though now I heard they're making EVs with solid state batteries in order to compete with Tesla. 

Zetsu, I believe you had a Honda Civic? Do you still own it?

Quote from: Shen Li on December 14, 2023, 04:08:21 PMZetsu, I believe you had a Honda Civic? Do you still own it?

Yea, I still have it with me as a back up car, lol.  The engine runs like new after 15 years of driving, sadly the car's hybrid battery is losing it's charge despite already been swapped on the 7th year, lol.