The Samurai vs the Mongols

[Gary Oak]

You can't compare the end of the western Roman empire when the Huns overran it with the Rome of it's heyday. At the end of the western empire Rome was a shadow of it's former self. This is like comparing mainland China's military when Vietnam kicked it's ass with the chinese military of today. Japan adopted alot of it's writing from China and some Confucionism but that's about it. Japan's Samurai culture had nothing to do with any chinese influence. Those same professional chinese historians like Henry Yu also say that Canada's history is all about Chinese peoples experience here, they say that China conquered Russia during Ghengis Khan's illustrious rule , that Taiwan has always been a chinese province, that Tibet,Mongolia and Vietnam historically belonged to China. It would have been an interesting match but i wouldn't write off the Romans so easily. England used long bows successfully against the French who used crossbows [ Argincourt ] and defeated the French consistantly due to the longer range of the longbow which appears to mean that the argument over the crossbows is incorrect.

[Zetsu]

You can't compare the end of the western Roman empire when the Huns overran it with the Rome of it's heyday. At the end of the western empire Rome was a shadow of it's former self. This is like comparing mainland China's military when Vietnam kicked it's ass with the chinese military of today. Japan adopted alot of it's writing from China and some Confucionism but that's about it. Japan's Samurai culture had nothing to do with any chinese influence. Those same professional chinese historians like Henry Yu also say that Canada's history is all about Chinese peoples experience here, they say that China conquered Russia during Ghengis Khan's illustrious rule , that Taiwan has always been a chinese province, that Tibet,Mongolia and Vietnam historically belonged to China. It would have been an interesting match but i wouldn't write off the Romans so easily. England used long bows successfully against the French who used crossbows [ Argincourt ] and defeated the French consistantly due to the longer range of the longbow which appears to mean that the argument over the crossbows is incorrect.

Well it's true the Romans empire was corrupted by then, I don't deny that.  



About the Sino Vietnamese war PLA did had high losses when they invaded pass enemy lines filled with booby traps and landminds at the beginning, but after the PLA used armor units and crushed anything opposing them in the way, and during the war China definately didn't have technology of today which was basically 40 years ago cold war technology compared to the 5th generation fighter jets they're making now.  Not to mention the Viets were backed up by the Soviets, they would never have stand a chance if they were alone.  While casualty ratio were 1 to 10 in the favor of the PLA, it's obvious who's ass got kicked.



For traditional Japanese culture practically everything is from China, from karate(kung fu), architecture, clothing, hairstyle, manners, swords crafting techniques, family values, bushido(basically confucioius teaching) loyalty, dicipline, to even discimination against women, lol.



For about the Roman debate instead of making all these pointless excused, you've failed to provide any logical points or historical facts against my argument.  The crossbow law isn't irrelevant, you're comparing longbows to crossbow, before what I mean is melee units(Romans) wouldn't stand a chance against range weaponary(Han), also same for foot soldiers(Roman) are proven to be useless against cavalry(Hans).

[Zetsu]

Here are the list of Roman vs China strength



Roman



- Soldier's professionalism





Han



- Chemical engineering (tear gas, mustard gas, mercury vapor gas, natural gas mining) later guns, canons, flamethrower, rockets

- Calvary

- Range weaponary

- Siege weapons

- Agricultral production

- Economy

- Blacksmith technology

[Gary Oak]

Here are the list of Roman vs China strength



Roman



- Soldier's professionalism





Han



- Chemical engineering (tear gas, mustard gas, mercury vapor gas, natural gas mining) later guns, canons, flamethrower, rockets

- Calvary

- Range weaponary

- Siege weapons

- Agricultral production

- Economy

- Blacksmith technology

   That all looks good in print however The Han Tang and Ming had mustard gas ? Mercury vapor gas in large quantities ? Natural gas mining yet they have the worlds worst mining record today ? These dynasties had tear gas ?  They had great agriculture and economy but yet had yearly famines ? Chinese soldiers have always been great when they so vastly outnumber their enemy that their enemy was afraid to fight back. Did they really have such great blacksmith technology yet even with todays technology Chinese quality fade persists in all industries. and you comment that Chinese killed 10 to 1 in the Chinese Vietnamese war. As if, do you get your statistics from the PRC ? Actual deaths were about equal. The Russians kept the Vietnamese from losing ? As if ? How many Russians died fighting there. You must have gotten your facts from PRC textbooks. Karate developed completely independant of Kung Fu. The Soldiers in the northern frontiers against the natives is genesis of the Samurai and their training had nothing to do with China or Kung Fu. Karate and Kung Fu are so different from each other that this argument holds no water at all. How do you know that Japanese chauvanism came from China and not Korea ? [ which Chinese have decided are a minority of China as they have Vietnamese,Mongolians Tibetans etc... ]



The Roman shields were very effective against arrows and Roman siege weapons were just as advanced if not better. No it's your facts that you appear to have either dreamed up or have read from a PRC propaganda manual

[Securious]

Korea,Vietnam,Japan etc.. all older and specific civilizations than China. China's Borders changing as well as its conquered peoples constantly shifting.



China is a hodge podge of peoples,of non-homogeous origins. Am I wrong here. Arguably civilization stemmed east+west from Oceania so say geneticists researching the peoples of the South Pacific Islands. They say that the Caucasian race stems from there.



Probably this post should be on another thread..hmmm

scuse me folks



just sayin

[Zetsu]

Here are the list of Roman vs China strength



Roman



- Soldier's professionalism





Han



- Chemical engineering (tear gas, mustard gas, mercury vapor gas, natural gas mining) later guns, canons, flamethrower, rockets

- Calvary

- Range weaponary

- Siege weapons

- Agricultral production

- Economy

- Blacksmith technology

   That all looks good in print howeverThe Han Tang and Ming had mustard gas ? Mercury vapor gas in large quantities ? Natural gas mining yet they have the worlds worst mining record today ? These dynasties had tear gas ?  They had great agriculture and economy but yet had yearly famines ? Chinese soldiers have alwasy been great when they so vastly outnumber their enemy that their enemy was afraid to fight back. Did they really have such great blacksmith technology yet even with todays technology Chinese quality fade persists in all industries. and you comment that Chinese killed 10 to 1 in the Chinese Vietnamese war. As if, do you get your statistics from the PRC ? Actual deaths were about equal. The Russians kept the Vietnamese from losing ? As if ? How many Russians died fighting there. You must have gotten your facts from PRC textbooks.

*sigh* Your arguments are only getting weaker, using the "developing" china today as an excuse to compare to Han dynasty is not only lame and illogical, but amazingly stupid.  And from wiki states famines in China only come around every 200 years, not yearly.  Yes, China did have tear gas and mustard gas in warfare.  Yes, Han's alchemy was superior to Romes.  When did I've ever said Russians fought in Vietnam,  I said they back up by supplying war equiptment and providing satalite survailance.  For casualty ratio my sources are not from PRC but from wiki, not to mention China had inferior numbers compared to the Viets along with the disadvantage having to enter into territory with enemies hiding and waiting to ambush in the jungle.  So far you've only been posting illogical simple sentense without backing up any of your claims and just don't want to accept the facts.



Edit



Yes, Karate is just a copied and improved version of Kung fu, everyone knows that.  For discrimination againts women in Japan it was heavily influence by Confucius teachings, Japan culturally copied everything from Tang, while they never bothered with Korea.  Han crossbows have no problem penetrating Roman shields so your argument is pointless, and Roman seige also had inferior ranges to Hans.

[Gary Oak]

The Han dynasty of 2,000 years ago was more advanced than the China of the Communist era...ya ...ok... your arguments are becoming comedic. From the sounds of things these ancient Han soldiers could fly too

[Zetsu]

The Han dynasty of 2,000 years ago was more advanced than the China of the Communist era...ya ...ok... your arguments are becoming comedic. From the sounds of things these ancient Han soldiers could fly too

Are you really that stupid?  Tell me what does modern technology has to do with ancient technology?

[Zetsu]

So far I've countered all your bullshit Gary, yet you still continue to argue with simple lame child like sentences rather than providing any sources to back up your claims

[Gary Oak]

You can't compare the China today to the one in the past, China as a nation has already lost it's edge since the fall of the Tang dynasty and as centuries pass they only became more and more backwards and socially corrupt.  Chinese in the old days were far more civil than the ones we see today,



    So you are trying to tell me that Chinese being hopelessly sycophantic and currupt is just a recent phenomenom ?  As if

[Zetsu]

You can't compare the China today to the one in the past, China as a nation has already lost it's edge since the fall of the Tang dynasty and as centuries pass they only became more and more backwards and socially corrupt.  Chinese in the old days were far more civil than the ones we see today,



    So you are trying to tell me that Chinese being hopelessly sycophantic and currupt is just a recent phenomenom ?  As if

No, if you've ever bother to educate yourself you'll realize Chinese history starts to decline after the fall of the Tang dynasty.

[Zetsu]

Here Gary, read this forum about Roman vs Han, even all the intelligent and educated European members there believe Han will beat the Romans.



http://www.historum.com/games/42989-roman-empire-vs-han-dynasty.html">http://www.historum.com/games/42989-rom ... nasty.html">http://www.historum.com/games/42989-roman-empire-vs-han-dynasty.html

[Gary Oak]

So far I've counter all your bullshit Gary, yet you still continue to argue with simple lame child like sentences rather than providing any sources to back up your claims

   You have countered with BS.  For example ;Romans used their rectangular shields to block arrows as they moved closer and as I mentioned earlier that long bows have greater range than cross bows and this is why the Brits consistantly defeated the French. You really don't know much of European history do you or the Romans. Are you going to tell me that China conquered Russia too ? You know your king Ghengis Khan ?

[Zetsu]

Here's another Rome vs Han thread in the same forum, as usual you can see the uneducated, bias and stupid Roman fans getting humiliated by the scholars and historians.



http://www.historum.com/games/44519-roman-empire-vs-han-china.html">http://www.historum.com/games/44519-rom ... china.html">http://www.historum.com/games/44519-roman-empire-vs-han-china.html

[Gary Oak]

If these posters are not chinese then how well do these people posting understand China ? If they are Chinese then welll.....you know... CHina great foreigners are evil and bad  but please let me live in your country as it is so much better than China



    Brilliant     Here is what I said. Now thanks for asking for proof. As I have posted many times. When a chinese guy asks for proof he merely knows that he is wrong and thnks that all white people are too stupid to understand how decietful and sly chinese guys are and too morally superior to believe it. Not all white guys are like Romero.