8 more slaughtered in the US.

[asal]

I used to go to winsor all the time. It's a lot different across the river.

It's good you had that experience to compare.

[asal]

You are missing my point. I read your post. Where do the guns that fall into the hands of villains originate from?

 Who knows. Other criminals.

Some from robberies / that makes the case for less guns in law abiding populace.

[Anonymous]

You are missing my point. I read your post. Where do the guns that fall into the hands of villains originate from?

 Who knows. Other criminals.

Some from robberies / that makes the case for less guns in law abiding populace.

 if they are law abiding places, it makes no sense to remove guns.

[asal]

You are missing my point. I read your post. Where do the guns that fall into the hands of villains originate from?

 Who knows. Other criminals.

Some from robberies / that makes the case for less guns in law abiding populace.

 if they are law abiding places, it makes no sense to remove guns.

They are potential victims of robberies.  Leaving the guns makes them accessible to be stolen.

[asal]

Did I win again?

[Wulf]

Did I win again?

NO and I suggest you do something about that mindset. I suspect you have grown up under the practice of everyone gets a trophy simply for participation.



The number of firearms stolen from private law abiding citizens and then used in commission of a crime is minute in comparison to the illegal guns gained by nefarious means. Don't believe it; just do the research into the ATF statistics. The majority of individuals who go through the trouble of appling for a firearms purchasing permit are responsible gun owners who make the effort to secure their firearms properly. Despite media sensation and the massive efforts of anti-gun lobbies and politicians, a credible link between violent crime and law abiding gun ownership has never been proven and I doubt it ever will be because it simply doesn't exist.



The reality is anti-gun laws amount to nothing but feel good legislation that have no effect on violent gun related crime. Anti-gun laws are nothing but useless feathers in the caps of power hungry politicians so that they can thump their chests when election time comes around. That way, fools like you can gush with feelings of safety and adoration for your political masters while you run to the voting booth.

[Bricktop]

Whilst venting your spleen of cynicism, would YOU care to explain why your crime rate is roughly similar to pretty much all modern industrialised first-world nations that do not permit gun ownership, or severely limit it?



Put another way, in Australia gun ownership is strictly controlled. By your logic, we should be in the tyrannical grip of crime gangs, and our homes under seige from would be burglars.



But we are not in that situation.



Nor are any other comparable countries.



Doesn't that suggest that gun ownership as a crime prevention measure is fruitless? So, pouring more and more guns into your communities merely guarantees that more and more criminals will come into possession of them?



And where do these nefarious guns come from? The Gun Internet?

[Frood]

Legal gun ownership is strictly controlled in Australia.



It's why the black market here is so big and not just for firearms. There are plenty of people who trade in quality crossbows and slingshots also, plus ammo. Ammo is huge when there are hundreds of thousands of now illegal firearms which people rightly didn't hand in for a pittance of their worth need to keep a steady supply of reloaded casings with viable powder in them for their unique gear.



Australia is awash in illegal weaponry held by otherwise law abiding people. That's what Australia's draconian gun control legislation did. It created a falsehood.

[Wulf]

Whilst venting your spleen of cynicism, would YOU care to explain why your crime rate is roughly similar to pretty much all modern industrialised first-world nations that do not permit gun ownership, or severely limit it?



Put another way, in Australia gun ownership is strictly controlled. By your logic, we should be in the tyrannical grip of crime gangs, and our homes under seige from would be burglars.



But we are not in that situation.



Nor are any other comparable countries.



Doesn't that suggest that gun ownership as a crime prevention measure is fruitless? So, pouring more and more guns into your communities merely guarantees that more and more criminals will come into possession of them?



And where do these nefarious guns come from? The Gun Internet?

I find it difficult to wrap my head around the fact that you are a former member of the law enforcement community and yet you do not know the answer to your question. Nor do you seem to be able to make the connection between violent crime, demographics, socioeconomic disparity and illegal emigration. You bitch and moan about many of these issues but you don't seem to be able to make the correlation between them and the plague of criminal gun violence in the US. Obviously either things in OZ are very different than in the States or you are like most socialist nanny state stooges and can only grasp concepts planted in your head by lazy power seeking politicians who aren't up to the challenge of addressing societies root corruption.



Please see the link provided and you will have your answer on where most criminals get their guns.  



 "ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes,"



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... /guns.html">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html



Well I guess this kind of explains it.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-26/source-of-illicit-guns-in-australia/6483762">http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-26/s ... ia/6483762">http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-26/source-of-illicit-guns-in-australia/6483762



It's apparent from the above link that most Australians including their politicians and law enforcement don't have the slightest clue where their illegal guns come from. They simply haven't figured it out yet.  So I guess your ignorance and confusion regarding this facet of the issue can be excused. But in all fairness, unlike the US, indicators point to a significant portion of your gun crime probably comes from all those heavily restricted, privately owned firearms that fall into the wrong hands. Maybe the government of Australia is correct in assuming it's citizens are truly too stupid and irresponsible to keep anything more than a sharp stick in their possession,.......I don't know and it would appear right now that neither do you.



I just have one question, why do Aussies like you have to jump on the social woes of the US and other countries when you obviously still have a ways to go in sorting out your own shit? We know we have problems, we don't really need people like you to point them out, thanks anyway. Is just pure unabated arrogance or is it the fact that life in OZ is so damned boring that you need something to occupy your minds in order to stop your brain tissue from turning to oatmeal?  This not meant to be facetious in any way, I'm seriously curious.   ac_umm   And it's not just you, Canadians, Brits, Aussies all seem to be fascinated with the US society and they seem to be all too eager to sputter out criticism that even "Captain Obvious" would be embarrassed to have pour from his or her mouth.

[Bricktop]

Well now, aside from the fact that your references merely highlight the fact that criminals access their guns through tapping in to lawful ownership or acquistition procedures; a point which does not in any way negate the fact that the overwhelming availability of guns is the root cause, you ask why we constantly slap the US.



It is simple. The US is a net exporter of its toxins. That includes guns, fast food, cigarettes and tobacco and violence based mass media entertainment.



Commensurate with that, the US constantly proclaims itself to be the world's greatest democracy, the "leader of the free world", and the greatest nation on earth which seems then to validate the fact that it fucks up other countries with its violent demeanour.



The US is the world's biggest arms dealer. Where do these arms go? Where did ISIS get their Javelins, and Humvees, and APC's that are stamped "Made In America".



See, its a macrocosmic version of your own society. Flood the place with lethal weaponry, and then stand aghast when bad guys join in the feast.



America has misled itself and humanity for far too long. Even after disastrous interventions in Korea, Vietnam, Lebanon and South America that produced very valuable lessons about global military interventions, YOU still invaded Iraq...asking all your buddies to join in...and look at the mess you've left behind.



So, at every opportunity, I and others try to reflect what the rest of the world sees and thinks so that you will accept a more accurate perspective about your nation's status in the world, and thus use that "world's greatest democracy" philisophy to change the way your respective governments and corporations behave.



Hope that clears that up for you.

[asal]

And where do these nefarious guns come from? The Gun Internet?

Please see the link provided and you will have your answer on where most criminals get their guns.  



 "ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes,"



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... /guns.html">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

^I appreciate the info Wulf, because I know nothing about these things.



from the frontline link:  



1.Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf.



2.The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. ...According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."



conclusion:  What's needed, according to Wachtel, is better monitoring of the activities of legally licensed gun dealers. This means examining FFL paperwork to see where their guns are coming from, and making sure that those guns are being sold legally.

[Bricktop]

What's needed is for America to grow up and realise that guns are abhorrent in modern society. It needs to stop living in fear of itself, African Americans and the other gangs its imported. It needs to understand that if someone breaks into a home and steals your new 60" LCD TV it is not an excuse for a shootout. It needs to accept that its "founding fathers" were not endowed by god to implement a Constitution that forever remains enshrined as a blueprint for modern civilisation. It needs to reflect on its impact on the world in general, and to accept that not every problem that arises demands its intervention. It needs to accept that other forms of government, anathema as they may be, may be better than ANY alternative, including America's form of "democracy". It needs to recognise its deeply rooted social tectonic plates and deal with them. It needs to recognise that wealth and worldly possessions are not the purpose of human existence. It needs to recognise its Government is corrupt and disconnected from the hopes and dreams of its citizens.



It needs a reboot.

[Anonymous]

You can get on TOR and go to the armory and buy grenades, ffs.  So yes, spec, you can go to Internet gun stores. You can buy from human trafficking sites on the deep web.

[Bricktop]

No, that's a cop out.



Once again, you say this like it is normal.



But what you fail to understand...constantly...is that we all live in the same world, yet only YOU are so obsessed and addicted to lethal firearms. Not the UK. Not Denmark. Not Thailand. Either you suffer a significant cultural flaw, or you simply cannot understand what you are doing to yourselves.

[Anonymous]

No, that's a cop out.



Once again, you say this like it is normal.



But what you fail to understand...constantly...is that we all live in the same world, yet only YOU are so obsessed and addicted to lethal firearms. Not the UK. Not Denmark. Not Thailand. Either you suffer a significant cultural flaw, or you simply cannot understand what you are doing to yourselves.

 It's not a cop out. It's reality. You may not want to accept that reality, but it is still happening. Gun violance isn't committed by permit carrying law abiding citizens....so guns should be removed from them.  The focus should be more on controlling the illegal black market and the criminals. Not stripping rights away from innocent citizens.