Trinity Western vs BC Law Society

[Anonymous]

The following is Trinity's website.

TWU's School of Law has been met with opposition primarily because our Community Covenant asks students to "voluntarily abstain from sexual intimacy that violates the sacredness of marriage between a man and a woman." Despite the significant attention it receives, sexual intimacy is only a small part of the Community Covenant. The Community Covenant is about holistic living, and focuses predominately on building a community of integrity, love, kindness, honesty, and graciousness.



Some opponents express the fear that TWU graduates will discriminate against the LGBTQ+ community in their professional careers—despite the Supreme Court of Canada finding that there "wasn't a shred of evidence" of any discrimination when the same issue went before them in consideration of our ability to educate prospective teachers in 2001.

Voluntarily abstain but what is the consequence if they don't abstain?  According to the media, it could be expulsion.

From the same website.

Anyone is welcome to join the Trinity Western University community. Their sexual orientation is never a consideration. As such, the TWU School of Law actually increases prospective law students' options. Should a student find that the Community Covenant does not fit their lifestyle, then their options remain unchanged from the status quo.

I assume they cannot take part in the faith based part of academic life at Trinity.

It's still discriminatory.



Although I think it's absolutely ludicrous for a school to force students to adhere to a "Community Covenant", I think it's all right for them to impose such things so long as they aren't getting tax dollars or breaks.  I don't want to support funding a learning institution that discriminates against freedoms guaranteed under the Charter.

This is from their website too.

As a private university, TWU does not receive public funding for its operations. However, there are two instances where TWU has received government financial support.



First, TWU's faculty, like faculty at all universities in Canada, compete for research grants through the processes established by the funding agencies. It is a small but important part of our budget and helps us raise the profile of TWU within the academic community in Canada.



Second, during the last recession, the federal government made available one-time funds under its Knowledge Infrastructure Program. TWU applied for and received funds at that time. The funds received amounted to less than ½ of 1 percent of the funds provided by the Program in British Columbia

[RW]

I see this issue as one of freedom of association - specifically the right to associate with people who share the same values. Some schools have a dress code; this one has a behaviour code. A contract is a contract. If you can't adhere to their rules then don't go there.



I thought the role of the law society was to determine whether or not TWU meets the academic requirements to produce qualified lawyers, not to decide who people have to hang out with. Their decision and the way they arrived at it (by referendum) has shown that not only are they a bunch of bullies, but they're also incompetent judges. This whole thing is an embarrassment to the people of BC. It makes us look like idiots.

The Law Society's role extends far beyond that.  From their page:



"The Law Society of British Columbia upholds and protects the public interest in the administration of justice by ensuring the independence, integrity and competence of lawyers, establishing education and professional development standards for lawyers, regulating the practice of law and preserving and protecting the rights and freedoms of all persons."



The concern is that the school has competing Charter rights and values, and that the public and the legal profession is better served having these fundemental issues resolved before it grants registration.



I don't think it makes us look like idiots at all.  I think it's a valid Charter challenge.

I agree that it's a valid Charter challenge, but it looked stupid to me because they made their initial judgement based on academic considerations, and then changed their decision because it hurt the feelings of a bunch of their members.

Seems someone pointed out something that they mulled over.  It was a 3-1 vote for not allowing TWU law graduates.

[Anonymous]

I see this issue as one of freedom of association - specifically the right to associate with people who share the same values. Some schools have a dress code; this one has a behaviour code. A contract is a contract. If you can't adhere to their rules then don't go there.



I thought the role of the law society was to determine whether or not TWU meets the academic requirements to produce qualified lawyers, not to decide who people have to hang out with. Their decision and the way they arrived at it (by referendum) has shown that not only are they a bunch of bullies, but they're also incompetent judges. This whole thing is an embarrassment to the people of BC. It makes us look like idiots.

The Law Society's role extends far beyond that.  From their page:



"The Law Society of British Columbia upholds and protects the public interest in the administration of justice by ensuring the independence, integrity and competence of lawyers, establishing education and professional development standards for lawyers, regulating the practice of law and preserving and protecting the rights and freedoms of all persons."



The concern is that the school has competing Charter rights and values, and that the public and the legal profession is better served having these fundemental issues resolved before it grants registration.



I don't think it makes us look like idiots at all.  I think it's a valid Charter challenge.

I agree that it's a valid Charter challenge, but it looked stupid to me because they made their initial judgement based on academic considerations, and then changed their decision because it hurt the feelings of a bunch of their members.

A voluntary covenant is a charter violation?

 ac_wot

It likely is a competing value, but a charter violation?

[RW]

The following is Trinity's website.

TWU's School of Law has been met with opposition primarily because our Community Covenant asks students to "voluntarily abstain from sexual intimacy that violates the sacredness of marriage between a man and a woman." Despite the significant attention it receives, sexual intimacy is only a small part of the Community Covenant. The Community Covenant is about holistic living, and focuses predominately on building a community of integrity, love, kindness, honesty, and graciousness.



Some opponents express the fear that TWU graduates will discriminate against the LGBTQ+ community in their professional careers—despite the Supreme Court of Canada finding that there "wasn't a shred of evidence" of any discrimination when the same issue went before them in consideration of our ability to educate prospective teachers in 2001.

Voluntarily abstain but what is the consequence if they don't abstain?  According to the media, it could be expulsion.

From the same website.

Anyone is welcome to join the Trinity Western University community. Their sexual orientation is never a consideration. As such, the TWU School of Law actually increases prospective law students' options. Should a student find that the Community Covenant does not fit their lifestyle, then their options remain unchanged from the status quo.

I assume they cannot take part in the faith based part of academic life at Trinity.

It's still discriminatory.



Although I think it's absolutely ludicrous for a school to force students to adhere to a "Community Covenant", I think it's all right for them to impose such things so long as they aren't getting tax dollars or breaks.  I don't want to support funding a learning institution that discriminates against freedoms guaranteed under the Charter.

This is from their website too.

As a private university, TWU does not receive public funding for its operations. However, there are two instances where TWU has received government financial support.



First, TWU's faculty, like faculty at all universities in Canada, compete for research grants through the processes established by the funding agencies. It is a small but important part of our budget and helps us raise the profile of TWU within the academic community in Canada.



Second, during the last recession, the federal government made available one-time funds under its Knowledge Infrastructure Program. TWU applied for and received funds at that time. The funds received amounted to less than ½ of 1 percent of the funds provided by the Program in British Columbia

They still received funding and get tax breaks.

What does it mean for a university to be publicly funded? I am a tax scholar, so I offer a definition supported by tax policy. TWU is publicly funded because it receives significant tax benefits as a result of its registered charity status. TWU is tax exempt, and therefore underwritten by public funding. The tax exemption is equivalent to a direct subsidy to TWU, since it represents tax revenue forgone, and governments must make up the shortfall elsewhere. TWU also issues charitable tax receipts that allow (and encourage) donors to give more money to TWU than they otherwise could, since the state gives donors a kickback on their taxes for doing so.

http://ablawg.ca/2015/03/09/trinity-western-university-your-tax-dollars-at-work/">http://ablawg.ca/2015/03/09/trinity-wes ... s-at-work/">http://ablawg.ca/2015/03/09/trinity-western-university-your-tax-dollars-at-work/

[RW]

I see this issue as one of freedom of association - specifically the right to associate with people who share the same values. Some schools have a dress code; this one has a behaviour code. A contract is a contract. If you can't adhere to their rules then don't go there.



I thought the role of the law society was to determine whether or not TWU meets the academic requirements to produce qualified lawyers, not to decide who people have to hang out with. Their decision and the way they arrived at it (by referendum) has shown that not only are they a bunch of bullies, but they're also incompetent judges. This whole thing is an embarrassment to the people of BC. It makes us look like idiots.

The Law Society's role extends far beyond that.  From their page:



"The Law Society of British Columbia upholds and protects the public interest in the administration of justice by ensuring the independence, integrity and competence of lawyers, establishing education and professional development standards for lawyers, regulating the practice of law and preserving and protecting the rights and freedoms of all persons."



The concern is that the school has competing Charter rights and values, and that the public and the legal profession is better served having these fundemental issues resolved before it grants registration.



I don't think it makes us look like idiots at all.  I think it's a valid Charter challenge.

I agree that it's a valid Charter challenge, but it looked stupid to me because they made their initial judgement based on academic considerations, and then changed their decision because it hurt the feelings of a bunch of their members.

A voluntary covenant is a charter violation?

 ac_wot

It likely is a competing value, but a charter violation?

If it penalizes or discriminates against someone who doesn't sign or breaks the covenant based on their guaranteed freedoms then it's a Charter violation.

[easter bunny]

Seems someone pointed out something that they mulled over.  It was a 3-1 vote for not allowing TWU law graduates.

The way I understood it, they approved Trinity at first and then a few days later they changed their minds. It just seemed pretty unprofessional to me. I don't have a problem with TWU having certain entry requirements, but it does get complicated when you add public funding to the equation.

[RW]

What the TWU site says about their Community Covenant:



The Community Covenant is included within the application process, and those applying for community membership should read the statement carefully. Maintenance of one's integrity with regard to the Community Covenant is essential for continued membership in the community. Once a commitment has been indicated through signature, failure to respect the Community Covenant is a breach of personal integrity, a matter which may, in some cases, be of greater concern than the violation itself.



https://twu.ca/studenthandbook/university-policies/community-covenant.html">https://twu.ca/studenthandbook/universi ... enant.html">https://twu.ca/studenthandbook/university-policies/community-covenant.html



The TWU community covenant involves a commitment on the part of ALL members to embody attitudes and to practise actions identified in the Bible as virtues, and to avoid those portrayed as destructive.



https://twu.ca/studenthandbook/university-policies/community-covenant-agreement.html">https://twu.ca/studenthandbook/universi ... ement.html">https://twu.ca/studenthandbook/university-policies/community-covenant-agreement.html



Sure doesn't sound optional...

[RW]

Seems someone pointed out something that they mulled over.  It was a 3-1 vote for not allowing TWU law graduates.

The way I understood it, they approved Trinity at first and then a few days later they changed their minds. It just seemed pretty unprofessional to me. I don't have a problem with TWU having certain entry requirements, but it does get complicated when you add public funding to the equation.

They had a vote of the full membership a few days later.  No go was the result of said vote.

[Anonymous]

The following is Trinity's website.

TWU's School of Law has been met with opposition primarily because our Community Covenant asks students to "voluntarily abstain from sexual intimacy that violates the sacredness of marriage between a man and a woman." Despite the significant attention it receives, sexual intimacy is only a small part of the Community Covenant. The Community Covenant is about holistic living, and focuses predominately on building a community of integrity, love, kindness, honesty, and graciousness.



Some opponents express the fear that TWU graduates will discriminate against the LGBTQ+ community in their professional careers—despite the Supreme Court of Canada finding that there "wasn't a shred of evidence" of any discrimination when the same issue went before them in consideration of our ability to educate prospective teachers in 2001.

Voluntarily abstain but what is the consequence if they don't abstain?  According to the media, it could be expulsion.

From the same website.

Anyone is welcome to join the Trinity Western University community. Their sexual orientation is never a consideration. As such, the TWU School of Law actually increases prospective law students' options. Should a student find that the Community Covenant does not fit their lifestyle, then their options remain unchanged from the status quo.

I assume they cannot take part in the faith based part of academic life at Trinity.

It's still discriminatory.



Although I think it's absolutely ludicrous for a school to force students to adhere to a "Community Covenant", I think it's all right for them to impose such things so long as they aren't getting tax dollars or breaks.  I don't want to support funding a learning institution that discriminates against freedoms guaranteed under the Charter.

This is from their website too.

As a private university, TWU does not receive public funding for its operations. However, there are two instances where TWU has received government financial support.



First, TWU's faculty, like faculty at all universities in Canada, compete for research grants through the processes established by the funding agencies. It is a small but important part of our budget and helps us raise the profile of TWU within the academic community in Canada.



Second, during the last recession, the federal government made available one-time funds under its Knowledge Infrastructure Program. TWU applied for and received funds at that time. The funds received amounted to less than ½ of 1 percent of the funds provided by the Program in British Columbia

They still received funding and get tax breaks.

What does it mean for a university to be publicly funded? I am a tax scholar, so I offer a definition supported by tax policy. TWU is publicly funded because it receives significant tax benefits as a result of its registered charity status. TWU is tax exempt, and therefore underwritten by public funding. The tax exemption is equivalent to a direct subsidy to TWU, since it represents tax revenue forgone, and governments must make up the shortfall elsewhere. TWU also issues charitable tax receipts that allow (and encourage) donors to give more money to TWU than they otherwise could, since the state gives donors a kickback on their taxes for doing so.

http://ablawg.ca/2015/03/09/trinity-western-university-your-tax-dollars-at-work/">http://ablawg.ca/2015/03/09/trinity-wes ... s-at-work/">http://ablawg.ca/2015/03/09/trinity-western-university-your-tax-dollars-at-work/

It's considered a charity because it does charitable work..



They emphasize service on their website..



If you don't want to serve your fellow man, don't apply to Trinity's faith based programs.

[easter bunny]

Seems someone pointed out something that they mulled over.  It was a 3-1 vote for not allowing TWU law graduates.

The way I understood it, they approved Trinity at first and then a few days later they changed their minds. It just seemed pretty unprofessional to me. I don't have a problem with TWU having certain entry requirements, but it does get complicated when you add public funding to the equation.

They had a vote of the full membership a few days later.  No go was the result of said vote.

Imagine if the Supreme Court did that.  

[RW]

Oh and according to their procedures for infractions, suspension and expulsion may be punishment for Covenant breaches.



https://twu.ca/studenthandbook/university-policies/student-accountability-policy.html">https://twu.ca/studenthandbook/universi ... olicy.html">https://twu.ca/studenthandbook/university-policies/student-accountability-policy.html

[RW]

Seems someone pointed out something that they mulled over.  It was a 3-1 vote for not allowing TWU law graduates.

The way I understood it, they approved Trinity at first and then a few days later they changed their minds. It just seemed pretty unprofessional to me. I don't have a problem with TWU having certain entry requirements, but it does get complicated when you add public funding to the equation.

They had a vote of the full membership a few days later.  No go was the result of said vote.

Imagine if the Supreme Court did that.  

The Supreme Court does "update" its decisions.  It just usually takes decades rather than days.

[RW]

The following is Trinity's website.

TWU's School of Law has been met with opposition primarily because our Community Covenant asks students to "voluntarily abstain from sexual intimacy that violates the sacredness of marriage between a man and a woman." Despite the significant attention it receives, sexual intimacy is only a small part of the Community Covenant. The Community Covenant is about holistic living, and focuses predominately on building a community of integrity, love, kindness, honesty, and graciousness.



Some opponents express the fear that TWU graduates will discriminate against the LGBTQ+ community in their professional careers—despite the Supreme Court of Canada finding that there "wasn't a shred of evidence" of any discrimination when the same issue went before them in consideration of our ability to educate prospective teachers in 2001.

Voluntarily abstain but what is the consequence if they don't abstain?  According to the media, it could be expulsion.

From the same website.

Anyone is welcome to join the Trinity Western University community. Their sexual orientation is never a consideration. As such, the TWU School of Law actually increases prospective law students' options. Should a student find that the Community Covenant does not fit their lifestyle, then their options remain unchanged from the status quo.

I assume they cannot take part in the faith based part of academic life at Trinity.

It's still discriminatory.



Although I think it's absolutely ludicrous for a school to force students to adhere to a "Community Covenant", I think it's all right for them to impose such things so long as they aren't getting tax dollars or breaks.  I don't want to support funding a learning institution that discriminates against freedoms guaranteed under the Charter.

This is from their website too.

As a private university, TWU does not receive public funding for its operations. However, there are two instances where TWU has received government financial support.



First, TWU's faculty, like faculty at all universities in Canada, compete for research grants through the processes established by the funding agencies. It is a small but important part of our budget and helps us raise the profile of TWU within the academic community in Canada.



Second, during the last recession, the federal government made available one-time funds under its Knowledge Infrastructure Program. TWU applied for and received funds at that time. The funds received amounted to less than ½ of 1 percent of the funds provided by the Program in British Columbia

They still received funding and get tax breaks.

What does it mean for a university to be publicly funded? I am a tax scholar, so I offer a definition supported by tax policy. TWU is publicly funded because it receives significant tax benefits as a result of its registered charity status. TWU is tax exempt, and therefore underwritten by public funding. The tax exemption is equivalent to a direct subsidy to TWU, since it represents tax revenue forgone, and governments must make up the shortfall elsewhere. TWU also issues charitable tax receipts that allow (and encourage) donors to give more money to TWU than they otherwise could, since the state gives donors a kickback on their taxes for doing so.

http://ablawg.ca/2015/03/09/trinity-western-university-your-tax-dollars-at-work/">http://ablawg.ca/2015/03/09/trinity-wes ... s-at-work/">http://ablawg.ca/2015/03/09/trinity-western-university-your-tax-dollars-at-work/

It's considered a charity because it does charitable work..



They emphasize service on their website..



If you don't want to serve your fellow man, don't apply to Trinity's faith based programs.

It still receives tax breaks.



We all understand the option to not attend is there but this is a legal debate.  The issue is if whether or not they should be able to discriminate based on a Charter right that violates a Charter right.

[easter bunny]

The TWU community covenant involves a commitment on the part of ALL members to embody attitudes and to practise actions identified in the Bible as virtues, and to avoid those portrayed as destructive.



https://twu.ca/studenthandbook/university-policies/community-covenant-agreement.html">https://twu.ca/studenthandbook/universi ... ement.html">https://twu.ca/studenthandbook/university-policies/community-covenant-agreement.html

That's where things get problematic for me wrt public funding. Do we also accept all the instructions in the Quran as virtuous?

[easter bunny]

Oh and according to their procedures for infractions, suspension and expulsion may be punishment for Covenant breaches.



https://twu.ca/studenthandbook/university-policies/student-accountability-policy.html">https://twu.ca/studenthandbook/universi ... olicy.html">https://twu.ca/studenthandbook/university-policies/student-accountability-policy.html

So depending on how you behave they can give you a timeout or they can permaban you. =P